Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but *anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to find people to test chatting with, and see what still needs testing (email manchester@lists.fsfe.org if you need help getting access to IRC).
The aim is to publish the results as a compatibility chart that will show at a glance the easiest way to chat. As many Free Software users still use Skype due to confusion surrounding Free Software alternatives, our research will hopefully be very useful to a variety of individuals and organisations.
*Activity outline*
- Testing takes place on 15.09.12 at 14.00-17.00 UK time (15.00-18.00 CEST) - Use a grid of Free Software chat programs for collecting our findings - Test as many chat clients as possible (eg. Pidgin, Psi) - For each combination of programs test whether voice chat and video works (people without webcams can still test voice chat)
*Optional additional tests*
- Try connecting to other people at madlab, and also try connecting to people in other countries - Test the Free Software clients with different operating systems if people bring them installed on laptops - Test different versions of chat clients (not just the latest release)
*Requirements*
- Bring your own laptop (some older laptops will be available to borrow) - Your laptop should have either a built in microphone, a separate microphone, or mic headset
*Optional Requirements*
- Built in, or stand-alone webcam
Three separate Free Software and GNU/Linux groups will be meeting in MadLab on Saturday: Manchester FSFE Fellowship Group, Manchester Free Software, and ManLUG. Other activities will likely be available in addition to chat testing, so feel free to come along and see what you fancy.
MadLab event page: http://madlab.org.uk/content/fsfe-manchester-free-software- and-manlug/
"See" you there (one way or another :) ),
Sam.
Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS, mike
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Sam Tuke samtuke@fsfe.org wrote:
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but *anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to find people to test chatting with, and see what still needs testing (email manchester@lists.fsfe.org if you need help getting access to IRC).
The aim is to publish the results as a compatibility chart that will show at a glance the easiest way to chat. As many Free Software users still use Skype due to confusion surrounding Free Software alternatives, our research will hopefully be very useful to a variety of individuals and organisations.
*Activity outline*
- Testing takes place on 15.09.12 at 14.00-17.00 UK time (15.00-18.00 CEST)
- Use a grid of Free Software chat programs for collecting our findings
- Test as many chat clients as possible (eg. Pidgin, Psi)
- For each combination of programs test whether voice chat and video works (people without webcams can still test voice chat)
*Optional additional tests*
- Try connecting to other people at madlab, and also try connecting to people in other countries
- Test the Free Software clients with different operating systems if people bring them installed on laptops
- Test different versions of chat clients (not just the latest release)
*Requirements*
- Bring your own laptop (some older laptops will be available to borrow)
- Your laptop should have either a built in microphone, a separate
microphone, or mic headset
*Optional Requirements*
- Built in, or stand-alone webcam
Three separate Free Software and GNU/Linux groups will be meeting in MadLab on Saturday: Manchester FSFE Fellowship Group, Manchester Free Software, and ManLUG. Other activities will likely be available in addition to chat testing, so feel free to come along and see what you fancy.
MadLab event page: http://madlab.org.uk/content/fsfe-manchester-free-software- and-manlug/
"See" you there (one way or another :) ),
Sam.
Sam Tuke Campaign Manager Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
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Mike Dupont wrote:
Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS, mike
I worked with mumble before briefly. It works very well. Even a low bandwidth server works. But it needs some configuration (setting up user rules and chatrooms) and is essentially only useful if you use it for MUC. But I would love to see more of mumble around.
So +1 for mumble.
Regards,
Phil
+++ ubsy@riseup.net [2012-09-13 17:33 +0200]:
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Mike Dupont wrote:
Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS, mike
I worked with mumble before briefly. It works very well. Even a low bandwidth server works. But it needs some configuration (setting up user rules and chatrooms) and is essentially only useful if you use it for MUC. But I would love to see more of mumble around.
I've used mumble a lot. It's pretty good but does have issues. The biggest of which is use of a codec nothing else uses (CELT). So you can only talk to other mumble users, and (so far as I know) a non-standard initiation protocol so you can't connect to SIPphones or jabber clients. And worse the CELT codec has gone through several incompatible versions so in practice you may well only be able to talk to other Debian/Ubuntu mumble users, or fedora mumble users.
The codec is now standardised as OPUS, and things should get better from here on, but the lack of connectivity with SIP/XMPP is a big minus. (Perhaps there is a way to do this).
The UI is great though and it does work well enough for company use (popular in canonical and linaro, for example). I've quite often been on a call where only 5 of the 7 particupants can actually talk/be heard though. I've had it mysteriously 'not-work' quite often.
Wookey
On Thursday 13 Sep 2012 14:57:10 Mike Dupont wrote:
Mumble anyone? seems to work very well. is FLOSS,
Added to the list of clients to test, thanks for the suggestion.
On Thursday 13 Sep 2012 15:03:17 Torsten Grote wrote:
Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.
Ditto above.
On Thursday 13 Sep 2012 16:03:19 Andrea Di Dato wrote:
It could be usefull - in this occasion or another - to test interoperability too. I'm thinking to commercial and accademic SIP system like the various set top box for videoconferencing - now almost all based on open standards like SIP and H.323 - or network based MCU like the ones available in the inter-universitary and research netoworks (I'm referring to the italian GARR [1] or the Caltech EVO [2]).
Yes that would be useful to know, but I think that for this event, unless we have someone who's able to coordinate testing with these kinds of proprietary clients, we will stick with Free Software applications. Apart from anything else I expect most people to turn up running GNU/Linux (I may be wrong).
On Thursday 13 Sep 2012 17:19:52 Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
Sounds interesting. I'd like to test empathy with google talk and what should needs to be to setup your own server.
I think testing with Google talk is a good idea, even though it's no Free Software, because it is so widely and easily used, and uses Open Standards.
On Thursday 13 Sep 2012 16:25:17 MJ Ray wrote:
I also use linphone quite a lot, although the two programs require different (incompatible AFAIK) features from a SIP server.
They do use incompatible protocols, but both apps can be tested for compatibility with other clients from their respective fields.
I'm not sure what I'll be doing Saturday and my new internet connection is still sorting itself out... but good luck to you and please let us know your findings via discussion@fsfeurope!
Will do.
On Thursday 13 Sep 2012 17:10:25 Dan MacDonald wrote:
Linphone is the only FLOSS VoIP/vidfone app I've ever had decent results with but it uses SIP and many routers are funny with SIP so they often require config to work well with SIP. Anything that requires people start configuring network gear is instantly not consumer friendly if not a prob for most Linux/*nix users. The main prob with Linphone is it lacks encryption, or it did last time I checked.
I guess we'll see if it works without network config or not. I don't plan to fiddle with routers in order to fix issues. What we're looking for is out of the box compatibility.
I've ended up just using Gtalk which seems to be using webrtc as its backend now. gtalk is non-free but webrtc is at least an open standard unlike Skype and there are FLOSS webrtc clients (some HTML5) in development.
Webrtc looks good - we can also test if chatting chromium to chromium works with this as the backend.
Thanks for all the input so far!
Sam.
On Thursday 13 September 2012 14:55:50 Sam Tuke wrote:
We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.
Regards, Torsten
2012/9/13 Torsten Grote Torsten.Grote@fsfe.org:
On Thursday 13 September 2012 14:55:50 Sam Tuke wrote:
We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.
+1 for https://jitsi.org/
Otto Kekäläinen otto@fsfe.org
2012/9/13 Torsten Grote Torsten.Grote@fsfe.org:
On Thursday 13 September 2012 14:55:50 Sam Tuke wrote:
We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
Don't forget to evaluate Jitsi. It works quite well for me.
+1 for https://jitsi.org/
Jitsi worked for me over XMPP. I also use linphone quite a lot, although the two programs require different (incompatible AFAIK) features from a SIP server.
I'm not sure what I'll be doing Saturday and my new internet connection is still sorting itself out... but good luck to you and please let us know your findings via discussion@fsfeurope!
Regards,
Sam Tuke samtuke@fsfe.org writes:
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but *anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to
Sounds interesting. I'd like to test empathy with google talk and what should needs to be to setup your own server.
Linphone is the only FLOSS VoIP/vidfone app I've ever had decent results with but it uses SIP and many routers are funny with SIP so they often require config to work well with SIP. Anything that requires people start configuring network gear is instantly not consumer friendly if not a prob for most Linux/*nix users. The main prob with Linphone is it lacks encryption, or it did last time I checked.
I've ended up just using Gtalk which seems to be using webrtc as its backend now. gtalk is non-free but webrtc is at least an open standard unlike Skype and there are FLOSS webrtc clients (some HTML5) in development.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Sam Tuke samtuke@fsfe.org wrote:
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
The core group of testers will be in Madlab Hackerspace in Manchester, but *anyone can participate* - join the #FSFE IRC channel on Freenode to find people to test chatting with, and see what still needs testing (email manchester@lists.fsfe.org if you need help getting access to IRC).
The aim is to publish the results as a compatibility chart that will show at a glance the easiest way to chat. As many Free Software users still use Skype due to confusion surrounding Free Software alternatives, our research will hopefully be very useful to a variety of individuals and organisations.
*Activity outline*
- Testing takes place on 15.09.12 at 14.00-17.00 UK time (15.00-18.00 CEST)
- Use a grid of Free Software chat programs for collecting our findings
- Test as many chat clients as possible (eg. Pidgin, Psi)
- For each combination of programs test whether voice chat and video works (people without webcams can still test voice chat)
*Optional additional tests*
- Try connecting to other people at madlab, and also try connecting to people in other countries
- Test the Free Software clients with different operating systems if people bring them installed on laptops
- Test different versions of chat clients (not just the latest release)
*Requirements*
- Bring your own laptop (some older laptops will be available to borrow)
- Your laptop should have either a built in microphone, a separate microphone, or mic headset
*Optional Requirements*
- Built in, or stand-alone webcam
Three separate Free Software and GNU/Linux groups will be meeting in MadLab on Saturday: Manchester FSFE Fellowship Group, Manchester Free Software, and ManLUG. Other activities will likely be available in addition to chat testing, so feel free to come along and see what you fancy.
MadLab event page: http://madlab.org.uk/content/fsfe-manchester-free-software- and-manlug/
"See" you there (one way or another :) ),
Sam.
Sam Tuke Campaign Manager Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org _______________________________________________ Fsuk-manchester mailing list Fsuk-manchester@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester
Dan MacDonald allcoms@gmail.com writes:
I've ended up just using Gtalk which seems to be using webrtc as its backend now. gtalk is non-free but webrtc is at least an open standard unlike Skype and there are FLOSS webrtc clients (some HTML5) in development.
Have you tried gtalk with empathy? This way you shouldn't be running any non-free code at least on your own computer. If it works I think the best solution would be to start looking at how to build the server parts using free software.
Have you tried gtalk with empathy? This way you shouldn't be running any non-free code at least on your own computer. If it works I think the best solution would be to start looking at how to build the server parts using free software.
No I've not but that's a good suggestion and that could well be the best free and open VoIP/VC solution if it works so I'll try that ASAP and report back here if I do so before the test-o-thon.
Thanks
Dan
What about this isn't just the network effect problem?
Skype wins on network effect. (My utterly nontechnical mother got broadband *just* to Skype to her grandchildren. "Video phone" = "Skype". [1])
Ubuntu included Ekiga in the default install for ages. It works perfectly well. They eventually took it out because pretty much no-one used it.
I submit that the problem is not the software itself - it's gaining network effect for the software, to overcome the proprietary incumbent.
- d.
[1] yes, this is bad, but I'm describing the ground first.
Hi Sam,
Would it also be worth a notice on Libertree and/or Diaspora? There are a fair number of users across Europe on both systems.
How is the wider coordination going to be handled on the day? Via one of the email lists?
David https://calispora.org/u/frogfall http://maple.libertreeproject.org/profiles/show/84 http://identi.ca/frogfall
________________________________________ From: manchester-bounces@lists.fsfe.org [manchester-bounces@lists.fsfe.org] on behalf of Sam Tuke [samtuke@fsfe.org] Sent: 13 September 2012 13:55 To: manchester@lists.fsfe.org; fellowship-uk@lists.fsfe.org; Manchester Free Software; discussion@fsfeurope.org; MAN-LUG@listserv.manchester.ac.uk Subject: [FSFE-Manc] Software Freedom Day: Hunt for Skype alternatives
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
[snip]
+++ Sam Tuke [2012-09-13 13:55 +0100]:
Hello all, this Saturday Free Software activists will determine the easiest ways of chatting using Free Software audio and video programs. We'll be testing out a variety of applications, including Pidgin, Empathy, and Kopete.
This is a great idea. Well done. I've been using VOIP (SIP hardphone plus various softphones) for my main phone for many years. I'm not sure if I will be able to join at the time suggested unfortunately.
There was a very interesting session at debconf this year about filling in the server-backend parts of this and making open-protocol VOIP popular before the network effects allow proprietary tools (like skype) to take over.
Video and slides are here: http://penta.debconf.org/dc12_schedule/events/933.en.html
There are a lot of references to useful bits of software in there. Servers which speak SIP _and_ XMPP and thus can talk to most software/services out there, directory technology, etc.
I have told Daniel Pocock (the presenter, who seems to know his stuff) about this event.
Wookey
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Hello all,
I've put a list of chat programs to test, and details of how to get XMPP and SIP accounts if you need them:
http://etherpad.fsfe.org/j2uametMf3
The simple format to use for collecting chat results is explained here, with examples:
http://etherpad.fsfe.org/RX7S6q45gQ
Anna Morris (username Gingerling) will be helping to coordinate the #FSFE IRC channel, and assist people participating remotely in finding people to chat with. Feel free to grab her attention from 14.00 onwards if you need help.
I tried finding some web-based spreadsheet software to use as a results table, but I concluded that etherpad was the best solution (I posted my findings here: https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1952960). We can just make the results table after the event.
This is an interesting experiment - good luck everyone, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens!
Best,
Sam.
- -- Sam Tuke British Team Coordinator Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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The results of the testing have been published here, together with questions and conclusions:
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html
Thanks to all who participated, locally, and remotely!
Sam.
- -- Sam Tuke Campaign Manager Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
Thanks for the writeup! mike
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Sam Tuke samtuke@fsfe.org wrote:
The results of the testing have been published here, together with questions and conclusions:
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html
Thanks to all who participated, locally, and remotely!
Hi Sam!
Thanks - I'd been waiting to see the results although I not so sure about your prob with only being able to call people on the same SIP service as I know that I have made SIP calls with Linphone in the past to someone using a SIP account with a different provider, although they were using linphone too (but under Windows IIRC).
I've still yet to try Pidgin for vid conf yet but its on my todo list. Can anyone confirm you can vid call someone using Gmail from Pidgin without the pidgin user having to have Googles non-free talk plugin installed?
I don't think any of the voip clients support JACK which is a shame.
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Sam Tuke samtuke@fsfe.org wrote:
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The results of the testing have been published here, together with questions and conclusions:
https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html
Thanks to all who participated, locally, and remotely!
Sam.
Sam Tuke Campaign Manager Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/
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Fsuk-manchester mailing list Fsuk-manchester@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester
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On 09/29/2012 03:13 PM, Dan MacDonald wrote:
I've still yet to try Pidgin for vid conf yet but its on my todo list. Can anyone confirm you can vid call someone using Gmail from Pidgin without the pidgin user having to have Googles non-free talk plugin installed?
We had one video call pass using Pidgin to Google talk, so yes, it can be done. What makes you say that the Google library is non-Free? Libjingle, used by Google, is BSD licensed. Is there another Google plugin I'm not aware of?
I don't think any of the voip clients support JACK which is a shame.
I think you're right, and I agree!
Best,
Sam.
- -- Sam Tuke Campaign Manager Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
Hi Sam!
We had one video call pass using Pidgin to Google talk, so yes, it can be done.
Thats good to know!
What makes you say that the Google library is non-Free? Libjingle, used by Google, is BSD licensed. Is there another Google plugin I'm not aware of?
Maybe I was a bit vague but I'm referring to the Google talk Mozilla plugin and related libs required to use GTalk under GMail. This is my only experience of XMPP so far and you need to install Googles google-talkplugin deb or rpm to enable it as far as I'm aware.
I have not been able to find any source to this so that I might be able to use GMails XMPP/Jingle support under gmail on my Pandaboard for example although I must admit I've not gone to the effort of requesting said source from Google yet. Its nice having it under GMail as you need a browser anyway and if you're a gmail user then its nice not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally 'just works' TM, R etc
So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/
Dan MacDonald allcoms@gmail.com
[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally 'just works' TM, R etc
Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.
So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/
Surely some of them on https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more than one.
Regards,
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:34 PM, MJ Ray mjr@phonecoop.coop wrote:
Dan MacDonald allcoms@gmail.com
[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally 'just works' TM, R etc
Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.
So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/
Surely some of them on https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more than one.
Because Kopete is pretty much outdated and unmaintained, nowadays one should use kde-telepathy for that, works quite fine here for XMPP.
Regards, Myriam
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Myriam Schweingruber myriam@kde.org wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:34 PM, MJ Ray mjr@phonecoop.coop wrote:
Dan MacDonald allcoms@gmail.com
[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally 'just works' TM, R etc
Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.
So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/
Surely some of them on https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more than one.
Because Kopete is pretty much outdated and unmaintained, nowadays one should use kde-telepathy for that, works quite fine here for XMPP.
Oh and somebody should update that table, Kopete is a KDE client, not a Gnome one (and it is outdated), please add kde-telepathy, see also http://dot.kde.org/2012/08/27/5th-release-kde-telepathy-instant-messaging-su... and http://community.kde.org/Real-Time_Communication_and_Collaboration. I use it here on Kubuntu 12.04 and 12.10 beta2.
Regards, Myriam
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On 04/10/12 11:52, Myriam Schweingruber wrote:
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:34 PM, MJ Ray mjr@phonecoop.coop wrote:
Dan MacDonald allcoms@gmail.com
[...] and if you're a gmail user then its nice not having to install and configure an extra client- it generally 'just works' TM, R etc
Except when it doesn't, then you're stuffed.
So, there are no working XMPP/Jingle clients for neither JACK nor KDE/Qt? :/
Surely some of them on https://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120920-01.en.html#id-table work under KDE? Kopete seems suspicious to me. Actually, the table could do with a "protocol" column, as some (Jitsi, for example) can do more than one.
Because Kopete is pretty much outdated and unmaintained, nowadays one should use kde-telepathy for that, works quite fine here for XMPP.
I'm not sure if I can reply to all the lists on CC, but would it be possible to set up a dedicated list for this initiative, or could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative, the key points are: - - using TLS as default for both SIP and Jabber (SIP over UDP is usually the default, but has too many NAT and MTU hassles these days) - - using ICE and TURN for NAT traversal (but beware of gotchas, e.g. Jitsi currently only supports ICE with Jabber and not SIP) - - the codec suggestions (clients must implement as many as possible)
I've also posted some comments recently on the FreedomBox list: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/freedombox-discuss/2012-September/0... and there was some feedback and discussion, I'm copying my comments here as they are directly related to this discussion:
- --------- I would certainly like to be involved in that and contribute what resources I can to support it
I believe the testing needs to be a little bit more scientific and not just take the `black box' approach, assessing each product on the following perhaps:
- - supported codecs (e.g. patent free, suitable for mobile, ...) - and which products support the codecs that other products use (matrix)?
- - how easy is it for user to get the `right' codec for their call? Is it automatic (Skype has dynamic selection of codec based on bandwidth, many free software products don't do this)
- - which solutions support NAT traversal? Is every permutation of NAT and firewall environment tested? ICE/STUN/TURN is good for this, but client software support is not always 100% (e.g. Jitsi supports ICE with Jabber, but not with SIP. Lumicall supports ICE, but there are some shortcomings, just look for the FIXMEs in the code to find out what they are)
- - how should users register for a truly `Free' VoIP network? Virtually all existing clients require users to both choose a provider and set up a SIP account, and it is always more difficult than setting up Skype
- - if there are many independent providers and small businesses running their own private VoIP, and the client software does somehow allow the users to connect to their chosen provider, they could be left in a little island (that is often the case today). How can they easily interconnect to users with different providers? This is one of the questions I've been trying to solve with my `Federated VoIP' pages: http://www.opentelecoms.org/federated-voip
- - what solutions are suitable for both corporate and private use? A lasting solution must be universal. Microsoft now has both the corporate domain (Lync) and consumer (Skype) and will most likely try to join them together more closely, and then do their usual trick of bastardizing the protocol and locking out alternative solutions. Given the existing widespread use of Skype, this is scary stuff.
Daniel Pocock wrote:
[...] could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
"Please activate JavaScript in your web browser" - could you please make that site useful without running mystery code in our browsers?
A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative [...]
Maybe, but I saw nothing on opentelecoms to say what copyright licence it's under (go Expat-style?), how to submit improvements, or even who to contact about it. Is it yours? Might be worth fixing those.
Hope that helps,
On 04/10/12 12:53, MJ Ray wrote:
Daniel Pocock wrote:
[...] could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
"Please activate JavaScript in your web browser" - could you please make that site useful without running mystery code in our browsers?
Have you tried contacting the sympa package maintainer directly? http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=sympa;dist=unstable
or can you suggest an alternative list manager? I felt mailman wasn't quite capable of virtual hosting as easily as sympa.
A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative [...]
Maybe, but I saw nothing on opentelecoms to say what copyright licence it's under (go Expat-style?), how to submit improvements, or even who to contact about it. Is it yours? Might be worth fixing those.
Yes, it is all material I have written and it could be improved with such details. I'm contemplating a move to Moin (or running Moin in parallel) so other people can participate - have you worked with Moin, Drupal or any other framework that you think is suitable?
Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au
On 04/10/12 12:53, MJ Ray wrote:
"Please activate JavaScript in your web browser" - could you please make that site useful without running mystery code in our browsers?
Have you tried contacting the sympa package maintainer directly? http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=sympa;dist=unstable
It's already there: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=320681#5 - I think it says it's gone upstream, but not where.
or can you suggest an alternative list manager? I felt mailman wasn't quite capable of virtual hosting as easily as sympa.
Well, it's been a while since I test-drove them all and I thought they all sucked in some way, but I know mlmmj will virtual-host, and there's also enemies-of-carlotta, quickml, schleuder and smartlist.
A lot of the material at http://www.opentelecoms.org (especially under the Federated VoIP heading) could really help this initiative [...]
Maybe, but I saw nothing on opentelecoms to say what copyright licence it's under (go Expat-style?), how to submit improvements, or even who to contact about it. Is it yours? Might be worth fixing those.
Yes, it is all material I have written and it could be improved with such details. I'm contemplating a move to Moin (or running Moin in parallel) so other people can participate - have you worked with Moin, Drupal or any other framework that you think is suitable?
I've worked with Moin and Drupal a little. I lean towards a wiki like Moin, but some wikis (mediawiki!) seem to be a bit fiddly to set up right, based on how many people make a horlicks of it. The problem with any system is how to "let the right one in" and accept contributions without overloading the admins or locking people out unnecessarily with eyetests or similar. Moin seems to have good basic ideas at http://www.moinmo.in/AntiSpamFeatures although it also discusses some silly ideas like Javascript and Akismet.
Regards,
Hi Daniel,
On Thursday 04 Oct 2012 12:21:52 Daniel Pocock wrote:
I'm not sure if I can reply to all the lists on CC, but would it be possible to set up a dedicated list for this initiative, or could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
The testing event that we ran was originally planned as a one-off event. However, there is still much work to be done on this issue, and there does seem to be quite a lot of interest.
We (FSFE) are happy to provide a new mailing list for Free Software telephony type discussion. Would you be happy to administer such a list? It would run mailman (quickML is not a good solution in my experience, though we support this also). How about free-telephony@lists.fsfe.org?
Would the list be for generic discussion, or coordination of a specific task? Do you already have some initial list members in mind? It could be a good place to coordinate more testing sprints.
Microsoft now has both the corporate domain (Lync) and consumer (Skype) and will most likely try to join them together more closely, and then do their usual trick of bastardizing the protocol and locking out alternative solutions. Given the existing widespread use of Skype, this is scary stuff.
Agreed!
Sam.
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On 24/10/12 18:53, Sam Tuke wrote:
Hi Daniel,
On Thursday 04 Oct 2012 12:21:52 Daniel Pocock wrote:
I'm not sure if I can reply to all the lists on CC, but would it be possible to set up a dedicated list for this initiative, or could I offer to host a list for this purpose at OpenTelecoms.org ?
The testing event that we ran was originally planned as a one-off event. However, there is still much work to be done on this issue, and there does seem to be quite a lot of interest.
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
http://fr2012.mini.debconf.org/#schedule
We (FSFE) are happy to provide a new mailing list for Free Software telephony type discussion. Would you be happy to administer such a list? It would run
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
mailman (quickML is not a good solution in my experience, though we support this also). How about free-telephony@lists.fsfe.org?
Some people don't like the term telephony, they feel it is restrictive. Real-time communications (RTC) is more generic. The list could be called free-rtc, as long as the long description in the mailman index has the full details, e.g. 'Genuinely free and open Real-Time Communications (RTC), encompassing VoIP, IM and other distributed applications'
Would the list be for generic discussion, or coordination of a specific task?
The `Skype Replacement' headline seems to have stirred up interest. It is always good to have a goal in mind. The list could be formed with the goal `to enable discussion among people who aspire to see genuinely free and open standards for real-time communications become the dominant paradigm, displacing scary proprietary platforms like Skype and Viber'
Do you already have some initial list members in mind? It could be a good place to coordinate more testing sprints.
Yes, I will email some of the key people behind other VoIP products and ask them to support this. Not all of them are FSF members, but it is OK for them to use the list too?
As for the next steps, I think the min-DebConf and FOSDEM (Feb 2013) are prime opportunities to take further steps. I am submitting a talk proposal on this for FOSDEM, and I would be really interested to know if anyone from FSFE would like to support that or be involved.
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On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Some people don't like the term telephony, they feel it is restrictive. Real-time communications (RTC) is more generic. The list could be called free-rtc, as long as the long description in the mailman index has the full details, e.g. 'Genuinely free and open Real-Time Communications (RTC), encompassing VoIP, IM and other distributed applications'
Sounds good to me (so long as it doesn't get confused with webrtc).
Yes, I will email some of the key people behind other VoIP products and ask them to support this. Not all of them are FSF members, but it is OK for them to use the list too?
Yes that's absolutely fine. FSF and FSFE are separate sister organisations, by the way :)
As for the next steps, I think the min-DebConf and FOSDEM (Feb 2013) are prime opportunities to take further steps. I am submitting a talk proposal on this for FOSDEM, and I would be really interested to know if anyone from FSFE would like to support that or be involved.
What kind of support do you have in mind? Promotion, or a co-speaker, or something else?
Best,
Sam.
- -- Sam Tuke Campaign Manager Free Software Foundation Europe IM : samtuke@jabber.fsfe.org Latest UK Free Software news: uk.fsfe.org Is freedom important to you? Join the fellowship.fsfe.org
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On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
Here is an interview:
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-...
and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM
On 21/11/12 23:14, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
hi all, haven't been following this overly, though I was at the event. I have been playing around today with google hangouts, While they are not free software, they are atleast made by a company who has some involvement with free software. On my OS, kxstudio, there is a great script based screen recording system - I have been recording the hangouts with great success.
I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a distance sadly.
Best
Anna
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
Here is an interview:
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-...
and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM
On 21/11/12 23:14, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
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On 09/01/13 23:00, Anna Morris wrote:
I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a distance sadly.
Anna, have you tried using a TURN server to relay the calls over NAT? You will need to check that Pidgin supports TURN - Jitsi definitely supports it
There are two TURN servers that I have packaged on Debian, for example:
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=resiprocate-turn-server http://packages.debian.org/sid/turnserver
and one of them is now in Ubuntu too: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+package/resiprocate-turn-server
You can build either of them from source on many other platforms
Best
Anna
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au wrote:
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
Here is an interview:
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-...
and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM
On 21/11/12 23:14, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
hum - see it sound so very complicated :S I just like to advance to go if you know what I mean. I will look into it :)
Best
Anna
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au wrote:
On 09/01/13 23:00, Anna Morris wrote:
I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam
and
I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a distance sadly.
Anna, have you tried using a TURN server to relay the calls over NAT? You will need to check that Pidgin supports TURN - Jitsi definitely supports it
There are two TURN servers that I have packaged on Debian, for example:
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=resiprocate-turn-server http://packages.debian.org/sid/turnserver
and one of them is now in Ubuntu too: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+package/resiprocate-turn-server
You can build either of them from source on many other platforms
Best
Anna
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au
wrote:
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
Here is an interview:
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-...
and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM
On 21/11/12 23:14, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for > the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm > quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about > why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software > Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
> Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/free-rtc
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
* Så talte Anna Morris say.hello.to.anna@googlemail.com:
I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a distance sadly.
You guys might want to check out the WebRTC specification that enables you to do peer-to-peer connections from inside the browser. There was much talk about this on HN the other day.
Of course it still needs an implementation to be useful in any way. If someone feels called to work on a free software web-based communication solution, I think that would be a very good starting point.
On 07/02/13 00:48, Andreas Tolf Tolfsen wrote:
- Så talte Anna Morris say.hello.to.anna@googlemail.com:
I hope there will soon be a really good free software video option. Sam and I tried to call pidgin to pidgin on the FSFE jabber server the other day. It worked when we were in the same room at the sprint, but it didn't work at a distance sadly.
You guys might want to check out the WebRTC specification that enables you to do peer-to-peer connections from inside the browser. There was much talk about this on HN the other day.
Of course it still needs an implementation to be useful in any way. If someone feels called to work on a free software web-based communication solution, I think that would be a very good starting point.
It was just in slashdot the other day too:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/02/04/1944217/firefox-and-chrome-can-talk-...
It was discussed at FOSDEM in various places
Some of the infrastructure for P2P (e.g. the SIP RELOAD spec) has been discussed on the FreedomBox group:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/freedombox-discuss/2013-February/00...
Andreas Tolf Tolfsen ato@fsfe.org writes:
Of course it still needs an implementation to be useful in any way. If someone feels called to work on a free software web-based communication solution, I think that would be a very good starting point.
Yes, it needs encryption and it needs to work even in the case where both parties are behind a proxy.
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Just following up about FOSDEM, as I would be interested in chatting in person with anybody who is particularly keen on the hunt for a Skype alternative.
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
On 09/01/13 21:18, Daniel Pocock wrote:
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
Here is an interview:
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-...
and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM
On 21/11/12 23:14, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
Apologies to those who are getting this 2ce since Gmail doesn't seem to handle replying to just mailing lists.
I'm suddenly very interested in a Skype alternative since for a couple of weeks I'm likely to see my supervisor by Skype. Undesirable. (But at least I can use uni hardware that's already dirtied by its presence :P) Is there an alternative that works well on GNU/Linux & Windows and is incredibly painless, since I'll have to persuade 2 windows users to install something else.
It's probably only a shot to nothing since I'm likely to get a "but I don't like change" response.
On the gripping hand, I might be able to wean my parents off the idea of skype...
James R
On 29 January 2013 20:01, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
Just following up about FOSDEM, as I would be interested in chatting in person with anybody who is particularly keen on the hunt for a Skype alternative.
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
On 09/01/13 21:18, Daniel Pocock wrote:
FOSDEM update... leaders of open source VoIP, real-time communication, micro-blogging and social networking projects are coming together at FOSDEM to try and answer some of the concerns that were raised in the FSF Europe report about the hunt for Skype alternative
Here is an interview:
https://fosdem.org/2013/interviews/2013-daniel-pocock-and-peter-saint-andre-...
and here it is in the schedule (14:00 on Sunday, 3 February):
https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/free_open_secure_communications/
Look forward to meeting some of you at FOSDEM
On 21/11/12 23:14, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 02/11/12 17:14, Sam Tuke wrote:
On 10/24/2012 06:08 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
I've actually proposed a follow-up talk about the subject for the upcoming mini-DebConf, as a developer of VoIP apps I'm quite keen to (try to) answer questions that people have about why so many things didn't work during the tests on Software Freedom Day
Very good! Please let me know if there is a video made of this talk, I can make a news item out of it on fsfe.org.
Just a reminder - the talk about Debian's role in replacing Skype is at 16:00 this Saturday.
Yes, I'm happy to administer that, and mailman is fine.
I'll get that set up.
Great, the list is now there for people who want to continue pursuing this initiative to the next stage:
There is already a push to repeat the VoIP client testing at FOSDEM in February, I'm currently discussing with the Jabber and telephony devroom co-ordinators.
For those who missed it, Microsoft has announced they are killing off MSN within 6 months and migrating everybody into Skype... one step closer to world domination. Scary stuff. Expect them to take similar steps to make Skype more dominant in the corporate space.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/microsoft-killing-messenger-early-next-year...
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james riley jimr1603@gmail.com writes:
Apologies to those who are getting this 2ce since Gmail doesn't seem to handle replying to just mailing lists.
I'm suddenly very interested in a Skype alternative since for a couple of weeks I'm likely to see my supervisor by Skype. Undesirable. (But at least I can use uni hardware that's already dirtied by its presence :P) Is there an alternative that works well on GNU/Linux & Windows and is incredibly painless, since I'll have to persuade 2 windows users to install something else.
I'm not sure whether it's relevant, but:
As I understand it, the JANET video conferencing service ("access grid") is usable with free software originating in the old MBONE stuff from UCL, and now https://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/accessgrid/. However, I've had no need of AG since our VC room with proprietary software was scrapped, so I can't vouch for it. AG has non-trivial notworking issues, which presumably rule it out for general use, but major universities are likely to have that sorted. AG is, or was, supported at Manchester; perhaps an expert is listening?
Short contribution... I use Access Grid on a weekly basis. It is essentially a collection of conferencing tools and a means to share connection details thereof. It uses vic and rat (audio and video) -- tools with GUIs built using tk-tcl -- and other non-essential tools built on jabber protocols etc. The AG tooling assumed multicast enabled networks but for point to point this is not necessary; and UK's AG infrastructure provided bridging on and off the mbone as well as support: this was provided by ja.net and formerly Manchester uni. HTH Mike J.
Dave Love fx@gnu.org wrote:
james riley jimr1603@gmail.com writes:
Apologies to those who are getting this 2ce since Gmail doesn't seem to handle replying to just mailing lists.
I'm suddenly very interested in a Skype alternative since for a
couple
of weeks I'm likely to see my supervisor by Skype. Undesirable. (But at least I can use uni hardware that's already dirtied by its
presence
:P) Is there an alternative that works well on GNU/Linux & Windows
and
is incredibly painless, since I'll have to persuade 2 windows users
to
install something else.
I'm not sure whether it's relevant, but:
As I understand it, the JANET video conferencing service ("access grid") is usable with free software originating in the old MBONE stuff from UCL, and now https://www.mcs.anl.gov/research/projects/accessgrid/. However, I've had no need of AG since our VC room with proprietary software was scrapped, so I can't vouch for it. AG has non-trivial notworking issues, which presumably rule it out for general use, but major universities are likely to have that sorted. AG is, or was, supported at Manchester; perhaps an expert is listening?
Fsuk-manchester mailing list Fsuk-manchester@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester
* Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au [2013-01-29 21:01:24 +0100]:
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers, Matthias
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner mk@fsfe.org wrote:
- Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au [2013-01-29 21:01:24 +0100]:
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers, Matthias
-- Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t +49-30-27595290 +49-1577-1780003 Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner) Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk _______________________________________________ Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us know if it works?
Anna Morris say.hello.to.anna@googlemail.com wrote:
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner mk@fsfe.org wrote:
- Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.com.au [2013-01-29 21:01:24 +0100]:
In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the
session
this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month,
and
all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who
may
be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers, Matthias
-- Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German
Coordinator
FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t +49-30-27595290
+49-1577-1780003
Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner) Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk _______________________________________________ Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
-- www.ethical-pets.co.uk - The pet shop thats *all sorts *of ethical!
Hi!
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us know if it works?
I have tried that and I couldn't get it working :( The error was something like "Could not establish connection (ICE failed)". We used different combinations of servers and protocols and we definitely tried with both using the same server (gmail in that case).
Hope that helps,
Stefanie
Anna Morris <say.hello.to http://say.hello.to.anna@googlemail.com> wrote:
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :) On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner <mk@fsfe.org <mailto:mk@fsfe.org>> wrote: * Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.com.au <mailto:daniel@pocock.com.au>> [2013-01-29 21:01:24 +0100]: > In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session > this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and > all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowd just > appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may > be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying > forward the momentum from Sunday's session? I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I can attend your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to. Cheers, Matthias -- Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t +49-30-27595290 <tel:%2B49-30-27595290> +49-1577-1780003 <tel:%2B49-1577-1780003> Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk <http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk>) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner <http://fsfe.org/about/kirschner>) Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk _______________________________________________ Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org <mailto:Manchester@lists.fsfe.org> https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
Fsuk-manchester mailing list Fsuk-manchester@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester
hum, well I am sure sam and I will try that at some point with the fsfe server and see how we go - I am aware vaguely as to why this is so difficult, but at the same time, I don’t see how cisco have managed to do it as it sounds like the same thing. I always figured it was simply the use of a shared server/group of servers that made it work - but it seems not.
Anna
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Steffi Tinder steffi.tinder@gmail.comwrote:
Hi!
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us
know if it works?
I have tried that and I couldn't get it working :( The error was something like "Could not establish connection (ICE failed)". We used different combinations of servers and protocols and we definitely tried with both using the same server (gmail in that case).
Hope that helps,
Stefanie
Anna Morris <say.hello.to http://say.hello.to.anna@**googlemail.comanna@googlemail.com> wrote:
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :) On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner <mk@fsfe.org <mailto:mk@fsfe.org>> wrote: * Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.com.au <mailto:daniel@pocock.com.au>> [2013-01-29 21:01:24 +0100]: > In particular, we are expecting a really big attendance at the session > this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roof this month, and > all of the speakers involved typically attract a huge crowdjust > appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with FSFE who may > be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics of carrying > forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure I canattend your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they plan to.
Cheers, Matthias -- Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t +49-30-27595290 <tel:%2B49-30-27595290> +49-1577-1780003 <tel:%2B49-1577-1780003> Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk <http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk>) - Contact (fsfe.org/about/kirschner <http://fsfe.org/about/**kirschner<http://fsfe.org/about/kirschner>)
Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk ______________________________**_________________ Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org <mailto:Manchester@lists.fsfe.**org<Manchester@lists.fsfe.org>https://lists.fsfe.org/**mailman/listinfo/manchester<https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester>______________________________**_________________ Fsuk-manchester mailing list Fsuk-manchester@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/**mailman/listinfo/fsuk-**manchesterhttps://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester
If you ask on the Jitsi users list they may be able to give you a TURN server name and credentials you can test against (to fix the ICE error) and if that works, it would not be too hard to set up a local TURN server on the same box running the Jabber server.
Many of the commercial products come preconfigured to use their own relay servers, so you don't normally see these details. Future versions of Jitsi and Lumicall are likely to have stronger abilities to discover such things automatically.
Anna Morris say.hello.to.anna@googlemail.com wrote:
hum, well I am sure sam and I will try that at some point with the fsfe server and see how we go - I am aware vaguely as to why this is so difficult, but at the same time, I don’t see how cisco have managed to do it as it sounds like the same thing. I always figured it was simply the use of a shared server/group of servers that made it work - but it seems not.
Anna
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Steffi Tinder steffi.tinder@gmail.comwrote:
Hi!
Anna, can you try using Jitsi with the same Jabber server and let us
know if it works?
I have tried that and I couldn't get it working :( The error was
something
like "Could not establish connection (ICE failed)". We used different combinations of servers and protocols and we definitely tried with
both
using the same server (gmail in that case).
Hope that helps,
Stefanie
Anna Morris <say.hello.to
http://say.hello.to.anna@**googlemail.comanna@googlemail.com>
wrote:
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with bothaccounts
on same server, worked when we were in the same room but notwhen we
were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabbershaped
as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet theywont
tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them.Anyway -
it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :) On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Matthias Kirschner <mk@fsfe.org <mailto:mk@fsfe.org>> wrote: * Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.com.au <mailto:daniel@pocock.com.au>> [2013-01-29 21:01:24 +0100]: > In particular, we are expecting a really big attendanceat
the session > this Sunday. My web stats have gone through the roofthis
month, and > all of the speakers involved typically attract a hugecrowd
just > appearing on their own. Is there anybody involved with
FSFE
who may > be able to comment on or contribute to the logistics ofcarrying > forward the momentum from Sunday's session?
I will be at FOSDEM, what are your plans? I am not sure Ican
attend your session, but I heard from others from FSFE that they
plan to.
Cheers, Matthias -- Matthias Kirschner - FSFE - Fellowship Coordinator, German Coordinator FSFE, Linienstr. 141, 10115 Berlin, t +49-30-27595290 <tel:%2B49-30-27595290> +49-1577-1780003Weblog (blogs.fsfe.org/mk <http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk>) -Contact
(fsfe.org/about/kirschner<http://fsfe.org/about/**kirschnerhttp://fsfe.org/about/kirschner
)
Support FSFE! http://fsfe.org/support/?mk ______________________________**_________________ Manchester mailing list Manchester@lists.fsfe.org<mailto:Manchester@lists.fsfe.**orgManchester@lists.fsfe.org
https://lists.fsfe.org/**mailman/listinfo/manchesterhttps://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/manchester
______________________________**_________________ Fsuk-manchester mailing list Fsuk-manchester@nongnu.org
https://lists.nongnu.org/**mailman/listinfo/fsuk-**manchesterhttps://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester
-- www.ethical-pets.co.uk - The pet shop thats *all sorts *of ethical!
Hi,
On Jan 30, 2013, at 09:42, Anna Morris say.hello.to.anna@googlemail.com wrote:
am interested as to why jabber, through pidgin, with both accounts on same server, worked when we were in the same room but not when we were in different places. Cisco are offering something jabber shaped as a service like this, and apparantly that works (i bet they wont tell us how or why though!). I really wouldn't mind paying a few pounds a month for a service like this, but not from them. Anyway - it is all over my head, but i guess all the info helps :)
this is usually a case of problems of NAT traversal. Jabber uses STUN [1] servers for that, IIRC. Essentially a Jabber server needs a little more setup to pass through WIFI access points et cetera for video chat.
Cheers,
Mirko. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STUN