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I'm sorry, but I don't understand this (not the questions, those I understand), but who today even thinks that others should provide the answers to:
How do I get paid for working with X?
Let me give you some important knowledge: the first step of a business is defining what value will you be providing to your customers and define the price appropriately. If you can't provide enough value to charge what you want, try another business/market/tools.
Please understand that NOBODY will assure an income stream. Translating, nobody will put money in your direction for free. Some pyramid schemes promise that, but they don't deliver.
Several of us are fine with working with free software and get paid for development, services and other things. Please do your homework if you want to work in the same field. There's a lot of information around, but it's up to you to define your business. It's not up to us to change free software to adapt to what you're thinking.
probably i should emigrate somewhere else... http://www.intraneia.com/servicos/traducao.xhtml
try to ask 75euros/hour (no VAT) here in italy... no-one will give it to you
you can reach 300/500 euro/day ... no-more
and bodyrental market (continuous income) cannot go over 250euros/day
italian taxation is about 48,5% for me, i'm a freelancer ... that means 125 A DAY!!! (when you are lucky...)
i can earn more, making prepackaged installations, that what i want to do... to give them away for free, and to earn on customizations... but what if a competitor of mine asks me for my toolchain??? i'm not going to give it away for free...
someone can please ask to redhat his toolchain? or to ubuntu? or suse?
can i get access to their compilation cluster?
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 09:47 +0200, Guido Serra wrote:
can i get access to their compilation cluster?
and even if you got those, what would you do with that?
Guido: it's tough to be a freelancer, in all fields and in all countries. Italy is not worse than Germany or Poland or Czech or India. Fortunately I know you well to offer you a beer and have a nice chat about your business: not that I'm an expert, but at least I can give you some pointers in a more effective way than a mailing list :)
Cheers stef
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Il giorno 29/mar/07, alle ore 10:47, Stefano Maffulli ha scritto:
On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 09:47 +0200, Guido Serra wrote:
can i get access to their compilation cluster?
and even if you got those, what would you do with that?
i'll do not waste hours compiling my code :(
and i can try some algorithms that took 11hours of computation on my double amd 2000MP+
in 300euro/day i have also to count the cost of hardware...
Guido: it's tough to be a freelancer, in all fields and in all countries. Italy is not worse than Germany or Poland or Czech or India. Fortunately I know you well to offer you a beer and have a nice chat about your business: not that I'm an expert, but at least I can give you some pointers in a more effective way than a mailing list :)
yeah, i know
ok, for the beer... but we (i'm not saying you or just i) should find a solution to my problem
that, i think, is not just my problem... last year we were a lot of student and freelancer that went on the streets asking to do not pass IPREDs ....
freesoftware is wonderful, if you are a student and want to learn, if you are an academic, of ... if you are a corporate that can say: "do you really want our toolchain? talk to our lawyers..."
i do not want to pay lawyers, i cannot pay lawyers
if someone asks my toolchain i should give it, i do not want to stay in jail
so...
why should i invest into creating a toolchain improving freesoftware?
i do not see a solution... don't know, really... maybe... i can keep for 2 years then i'll give it away for free, that could be ok...
i need a way i can pay my months of development of a toolchain, ...the only way is "Google, summer of code" ????
p.s. Stefano, let's have a beer, i'm getting angry on this... "Officina della birra"?
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
Hi Guido,
Guido Serra guido.serra@gmail.com writes:
why should i invest into creating a toolchain improving freesoftware?
Red Hat invests in the GNU toolchain because it improves their related software. i.e. by improving GNU classpath, they were able to use all of the java-based features of OpenOffice.org 2.0.
AdaCore initially contributed to the GNU toolchain because they were contracted to do so by some government body (IIRC it was the USA army, maybe my memory is wrong). After that funding ran out, they continued the same work. Their new business model includes consultancy and training.
Other examples of business models are:
MySQL AB, who distribute their database under the GPL and also sell non-free licences. So if someone wants to distribute modified versions of their software without contributing the modifications back to the community, then they have to pay MySQL (and this funds the improvement of the free version of the database). TrollTech is another company with a similar business model.
Digium is a company that provides support and hardware for Asterix telephony/PBX systems.
G10 Code and Intevation are two other free software companies whose business model you could look at.
In the 1980s, Richard Stallman made money by offering to post copies of his software to people, for a fee. This services was worth paying for in the 1980s because network connections were rare and slow. Many GNU+Linux distributions used this business model in the 1990s, but today it is almost extinct because high-speed Internet connections are common.
Stallman's other source of income in the late 1980s (and early 90s, I think) was to give classes on GCC and Emacs.
Another very common free software business model is based on system integration - helping customers to install networks and various software packages and making everything work together. These companies help free software because they often find bugs and will either submit a bug report or a bugfix. Some of these companies even add new features and contribute those back to the free software project.
Choosing the right business model for you depends on your skills, and your contacts.
But GPLv3 won't substantially change the options available to you. GPLv3 will prevent some current activities of Tivo and Novell, but for everyone else, it will help their business because everyone can contribute knowing that everyone else will be playing fair.
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Another very common free software business model is based on system integration - helping customers to install networks and various software packages and making everything work together. These companies help free software because they often find bugs and will either submit a bug report or a bugfix. Some of these companies even add new features and contribute those back to the free software project.
that's what i do.. a customer of mine last year found me for LDAP consultancy ...i did a total integration of his infrastructure... 8 months of work
now, from that experience i want to make a live cd based on Debian GNU/Linux ...it 's a massacre for me to replicate the same installation every time
so, i want to create a toolchain with all the configurations i need, and i'll give away a pre-packaged solution like ubuntu does
if someone wants customizations, pays
what happens if someone tells me... "i want your toolchain?"
can i answer... get the code, is out there, i did not changed anything of the binaries, the toolchain is MY work of configuring and keep everything togheter...
at the same time i'm contributing patches to projects GOSa^2, SeaGull, bind9, cyrus and sasl2 ...and from now, Debian LiveCD
why should i give away my toolchain? better for me not to create it and do everytime an installation by a netinstall from Debian and have NO TIME AT ALL to contribute to the projects i told before
i do not have time, money, and people to do like Mysql, Redhat, and many others did...
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
why should i give away my toolchain?
Because it is wrong to deprive users of their freedom. If you distsibute a program to them, then you should give them the freedom to run, study, improve and distribute the program.
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Because it is wrong to deprive users of their freedom. If you distsibute a program to them, then you should give them the freedom to run, study, improve and distribute the program.
yeah, right... i go to the bakery and:
me: "sorry, have no money, but i can give you this CD, it's freesoftware"
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
me: "sorry, have no money, but i can give you this CD, it's freesoftware"
me: "sorry, have no money, but i can give you this for [[10 zorkmoids]] CD, it's freesoftware"
And viola, now you have money.
On 3/29/07, Guido Serra guido.serra@gmail.com wrote:
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Because it is wrong to deprive users of their freedom. If you distsibute a program to them, then you should give them the freedom to run, study, improve and distribute the program.
yeah, right... i go to the bakery and:
me: "sorry, have no money, but i can give you this CD, it's freesoftware"
I don't want to fuel this flame but...
isn't Knoppix a live distro, and the business of Klaus Knopper (http://knopper.net/) ???
bye
--- Stefano Spinucci FSFE Fellow
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I don't want to fuel this flame but...
i hope it is not just a flame, almost for me
isn't Knoppix a live distro, and the business of Klaus Knopper (http://knopper.net/) ???
http://www.knopper.net/preise/ uhmm... is his toolchain public?
(if so, i'll try the same way, seems to work... if not... make your considerations)
i'm googling... and i'm not finding any official toolchain about knoppix
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
On 3/29/07, Guido Serra guido.serra@gmail.com wrote:
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isn't Knoppix a live distro, and the business of Klaus Knopper (http://knopper.net/) ???
http://www.knopper.net/preise/ uhmm... is his toolchain public?
(if so, i'll try the same way, seems to work... if not... make your considerations)
i'm googling... and i'm not finding any official toolchain about knoppix
I found some pages about customizing (http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Customizing_FAQ) and remastering (http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Category:Remastering_Knoppix) Knoppix, but no official build scripts.
*maybe* you don't have to distribute your distro-build scripts at all...
bye
--- Stefano Spinucci FSFE Fellow
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I found some pages about customizing (http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Customizing_FAQ) and remastering (http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/ Category:Remastering_Knoppix) Knoppix, but no official build scripts.
*maybe* you don't have to distribute your distro-build scripts at all...
oh, good :)
so, getting back to the topic... is this legal with GPLv3 ? ...i must know, because i'll do the same
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
Hi there;
just loosely following this discussion as a "silent lurker", I feel like shortly dropping in here:
[Guido Serra guido.serra@gmail.com @ Thu, 29 Mar 2007 14:18:39 +0200]
isn't Knoppix a live distro, and the business of Klaus Knopper (http://knopper.net/) ???
http://www.knopper.net/preise/ uhmm... is his toolchain public?
For what I see, these prices are about consultancy work. I have done Knoppix remasterings several times by now, and for what I see, all the tools to be used for that are available in "the wild" as Free Software or "at least" open - source. But I think this is not really a "toolchain" but mainly just something like cloop + basic debian tools...
By the way have look at http://www.gnewsense.org ... ;)
You know, reading through this thread, I really understand your problem, but to me, the point is: No one _asks_ you to create open source software or even Free Software. People still do proprietary applications, and, given you'd create a (desktop) tool to spit out plaintext configuration files for the different applications needed in your environment, things probably will be "fine" (if one accepts proprietary software). But this probably is not why you are here, is it?
Cheers, Kristian
For what I see, these prices are about consultancy work. I have done Knoppix remasterings several times by now, and for what I see, all the tools to be used for that are available in "the wild" as Free Software or "at least" open - source. But I think this is not really a "toolchain" but mainly just something like cloop + basic debian tools...
yes, that's the point... can i tell "all the stuff you need is out there, you can do the same by your own" ?
By the way have look at http://www.gnewsense.org ... ;)
You know, reading through this thread, I really understand your problem, but to me, the point is: No one _asks_ you to create open source software or even Free Software. People still do proprietary applications, and, given you'd create a (desktop) tool to spit out plaintext configuration files for the different applications needed in your environment, things probably will be "fine" (if one accepts proprietary software). But this probably is not why you are here, is it?
yes, i do not want to develop proprietary software
i believe in freesoftware, but i have to live and take bread at home
and i want to do it in an "ethical way" as much as possible
can i do with gpl3? i'm legal? that's my question
p.s. sorry by now, but i must write code, or my customer, who is reading this list, will not pay me... :) i'll be a silent lurker too...
-- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
Guido Serra wrote:
what happens if someone tells me... "i want your toolchain?"
It depends on who the "someone" is.
can i answer... get the code, is out there, i did not changed anything of the binaries, the toolchain is MY work of configuring and keep everything togheter...
If you distribute a GPL-derived work to one of your clients, you are obliged to give the sources to them, and only to them. No one else is entitled to a copy of the sources, if they did not get the binaries.
Of course, your client is then free to give binaries *and* sources to whomever they please, subject to the same requirement.
Whether changing configuration files, instead of sources, constitutes a derived work is a murkier matter, with no general answers.
This all applies to GPL-derived work: BSD-like stuff imposes no contraints of the sort.
Please note, IANAL, and all that.
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If you distribute a GPL-derived work to one of your clients, you are obliged to give the sources to them, and only to them. No one else is entitled to a copy of the sources, if they did not get the binaries.
Of course, your client is then free to give binaries *and* sources to whomever they please, subject to the same requirement.
Whether changing configuration files, instead of sources, constitutes a derived work is a murkier matter, with no general answers.
he he, you centered the question... that's my problem
anyway i have no problem at all, when integrating everything, if i find a bug, to correct it, contact the project maintainer, and distribute the source to my customers
the problem is just on "configuration" and "bundling" scripts, that's my "asset" ... i get payed for
- -- Guido Serra aka Zeph http://guidoserra.it +39 348 4313 992
sistemista e sviluppatore
Guido Serra wrote:
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If you distribute a GPL-derived work to one of your clients, you are obliged to give the sources to them, and only to them. No one else is entitled to a copy of the sources, if they did not get the binaries.
Of course, your client is then free to give binaries *and* sources to whomever they please, subject to the same requirement.
Whether changing configuration files, instead of sources, constitutes a derived work is a murkier matter, with no general answers.
he he, you centered the question... that's my problem
anyway i have no problem at all, when integrating everything, if i find a bug, to correct it, contact the project maintainer, and distribute the source to my customers
the problem is just on "configuration" and "bundling" scripts, that's my "asset" ... i get payed for
ok my situation is insofar different as i'm not selfemployed...
but just think about the following: you know your buildsystem once you have it the way you want it to be, whereas everybody else who want's to use it for his own customation has to invest (maybe) a lot of time to work into it. so while you would need 1-2 hours for a small change, somebody else has to study it and find out what problems could arise from using it. so for a (very) configurably system, the other guy has to invest maybe a week or so at least to get near your knowlege you have about it. so since time _does_ have a price (which is quite considerable) to buissneses.
ok, so what if some other consultant works into your system and uses it? well, you will have a competitor, though if you make it right and it gets accepted, you will also get patches and so on back which also is valuable for you.
but there is another part: the point of free software is that you give everything _to your customer_, not necesarily to the genral public and i don't think they want to change that int gplv3, since this would lead to problems for example for the buissness model of offering customizations for in house development where there could be the problem that you could also encounter the situation where you have a customer that says "ok i want to have this work done on this gpl projekt, but you will only give it to me and not to anybody elese because you will incoperate knowlege of our interior workings...
just my opinion of course...
yours albert
Other examples of business models are:
To add to the list, Simon Josefsson Datakonsult is a Swedish computer consulting company that specialises in network security protocols; Simon works primarily on GNU Sishi.