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Hi
I haven't seen the new education flyer yet, as I think it is still in development, I have a few possible suggestions.
1. The new curriculum in the UK (http://torbaytechjam.org.uk/curriculu m/ ) has a focus partly on using computers responsibly, so you could argue that using free software comes under this, as you are not taking the irresponsible step of using pirated software for example.
There is also a focus on safety so again by using free software you can examine the software, and make improvements if there are problems, the software is transparent in what it is doing and how it works.
Young rewired state and google summer of code actually encourage participants to release under free licenses, as this encourages collaboration.
- From an wider perspective too, taking part in free software projects has benefits for work experience, collaboration and working across borders with people being more concerned with what you contribute than your age, gender, orientation and ethnic background. So there is a lot of equality.
Granted here people still need to be careful as to what information they share, and take the same care about using forums as any where else,
Hope this helps
Paul
- -- http://www.zleap.net t: @zleap14 diaspora : zleap@joindiaspora.com Documentation lead @ ToriOS http://www.torios.org
Torbay Tech Jam http://torbaytechjam.org.uk Festival of Code 2016 1st - 5th August 2016 http://www.yrs.io
Hello Paul,
Thank you very much for your suggestions. They've been noted.
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 04:18:39PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
Hi
I haven't seen the new education flyer yet, as I think it is still in development, I have a few possible suggestions.
Yes, the development is still in an early stage. I have to wait until FSCONS is over until I can work on this but was hoping to collect suggestions such as yours in the meantime :)
So, whoever has more ideas and suggestions, also for illustrations, please let us know!
Thanks again,
Guido
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Hi,Guido No problem,
I have just joined the greenboard group mailing, list which is also focussed on free software in education. It is linked to software freedom day website.
In my intro I mentioned that you were updating your education flyer
http://www.softwarefreedomday.org/en/community/mailing-lists
It could be a good for both groups to collaborate.
Hope this helps
Paul
On 25/10/15 09:48, Guido Arnold wrote:
Hello Paul,
Thank you very much for your suggestions. They've been noted.
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 04:18:39PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
Hi
I haven't seen the new education flyer yet, as I think it is still in development, I have a few possible suggestions.
Yes, the development is still in an early stage. I have to wait until FSCONS is over until I can work on this but was hoping to collect suggestions such as yours in the meantime :)
So, whoever has more ideas and suggestions, also for illustrations, please let us know!
Thanks again,
Guido
_______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
- -- http://www.zleap.net t: @zleap14 diaspora : zleap@joindiaspora.com Documentation lead @ ToriOS http://www.torios.org
Torbay Tech Jam http://torbaytechjam.org.uk Festival of Code 2016 1st - 5th August 2016 http://www.yrs.io
Hello Paul,
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 10:24:42PM +0000, Paul Sutton wrote:
I have just joined the greenboard group mailing, list which is also focussed on free software in education. It is linked to software freedom day website.
In my intro I mentioned that you were updating your education flyer
http://www.softwarefreedomday.org/en/community/mailing-lists
Thanks for the pointer! I'll have a look. Do they have any website with more info than the mailman page? So far, your mail is the only one in the archive.
Please let me know if you get any feedback on it.
It could be a good for both groups to collaborate.
Yes, that would be nice.
Greetings,
Guido
Hello, Guido
Thank you for your reply.
the main website is at
http://www.digitalfreedomfoundation.org/
Part of the digital freedom foundation, It does seem their set up is not maintained. I am probably the only person on the list.
It is all interlinked between software freedom day, hardware freedom day etc, given we are all volunteers it is difficult to take on more work but they can't attract people if their sites are poorly maintained
Hope this helps
Paul
On 27/10/15 06:29, Guido Arnold wrote:
Hello Paul,
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 10:24:42PM +0000, Paul Sutton wrote:
I have just joined the greenboard group mailing, list which is also focussed on free software in education. It is linked to software freedom day website.
In my intro I mentioned that you were updating your education flyer
http://www.softwarefreedomday.org/en/community/mailing-lists
Thanks for the pointer! I'll have a look. Do they have any website with more info than the mailman page? So far, your mail is the only one in the archive.
Please let me know if you get any feedback on it.
It could be a good for both groups to collaborate.
Yes, that would be nice.
Greetings,
Guido
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Hello dear subscribers!
On 10/25/2015 10:48 AM, Guido Arnold wrote:
So, whoever has more ideas and suggestions, also for illustrations, please let us know!
I would like to add a comment on existing draft and encourage you to take a voice in discussion. The overall draft is quite good imho, so I would like to focus on importance of arguments.
I think it will be good idea to make some logical groups of arguments. I see a two or three groups now, with headers which should be added to the adequate groups:
1. Benefits of using FS in learning (it applies to both students and teachers). Headers: Sharing, Equality at home, Learning to program, Learning to use software, Independence
2. Gain from using FS for schools to cut costs. Headers: No license fees, Better use of old hardware
3. Advantages of FS for administrators: Headers: Modifiable, Easy to administer
Second and third could be merged, because they are pretty similar. Also headers *No trouble with licenses* and *No license fee* are redundant and should be merged.
I would also want to give my answers to Guido questions asked in ticket[1]:
What are the most important points for the audience?
First group I mentioned earlier is most important, especially equality at home, learning to **use software** and independence(this is an issue especially at universities)
What is the audience?
Students and teachers, but also school administration/principals.
What do we want people to do, after they read the leaflet?
Check out FS alternatives and maybe try migrate to them. Maybe it could be a good idea to put links for some most popular projects like LibreOffice, Firefox etc.
Do we have graphics / pictures which help to support this goal? To support independence argument we can use image of locked computer or even better user chained to computer. I find some promising pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/111692634@N04/11407107023/ https://pixabay.com/en/privacy-policy-data-security-445156/ https://pixabay.com/en/privacy-policy-keyboard-security-510730/
Best, cmd
[1] https://action.fsfe.org/ticket/45 - -- Cezary Drak | Software Liberation Maniacs Kraków All my messages should be signed with OpenPGP. The lack of or broken signature means someone might be impersonating me.
Hello Cezary,
Thank you very much for your comments! I just added them to the wiki so we won't be forgotten.
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 03:08:54AM +0100, Cezary Drak wrote:
On 10/25/2015 10:48 AM, Guido Arnold wrote:
So, whoever has more ideas and suggestions, also for illustrations, please let us know!
I would like to add a comment on existing draft and encourage you to take a voice in discussion. The overall draft is quite good imho, so I would like to focus on importance of arguments.
I think it will be good idea to make some logical groups of arguments.
I like that idea. It will make it easier to skim over the leaflet and still get an idea what's in it.
What is the audience?
Students and teachers, but also school administration/principals.
What do we want people to do, after they read the leaflet?
Check out FS alternatives and maybe try migrate to them. Maybe it could be a good idea to put links for some most popular projects like LibreOffice, Firefox etc.
I also think it would be beneficial for the audience to be given a few points to start with instead of being cast into a vast amount of options. On the other hand it is quite difficult for FSFE to "recommend" certain programs. I haven't made up my mind about it yet.
One option to avoid this dilemma would be to refer to Wikipedia's Free Edu category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_educational_software
What do you think?
Greetings,
Guido
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On 12/08/2015 11:08 PM, Guido Arnold wrote:
Thank you very much for your comments! I just added them to the wiki so we won't be forgotten.
What do we want people to do, after they read the leaflet?
Check out FS alternatives and maybe try migrate to them. Maybe it could be a good idea to put links for some most popular projects like LibreOffice, Firefox etc.
I also think it would be beneficial for the audience to be given a few points to start with instead of being cast into a vast amount of options. On the other hand it is quite difficult for FSFE to "recommend" certain programs. I haven't made up my mind about it yet.
I totally understand your concern and that FSFE can't, like you said, "recommend" certain software. Maybe we can point to sites like [Prism break]. I'm not entirely sure it would be a good recommendation, so any other propositions are welcome. I personally don't know any other sites like that.
One option to avoid this dilemma would be to refer to Wikipedia's Free Edu category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_educational_software
What do you think?
I think it will be beneficial to add this link to leaflet. However it doesn't solve above problem as this wiki site list only educational software and IMHO we should address general purpose software as well.
Best, cmd
[Prism break] https://prism-break.org/en/ - -- Cezary Drak | Software Liberation Maniacs Kraków All my messages should be signed with OpenPGP. The lack of or broken signature means someone might be impersonating me.
One option to avoid this dilemma would be to refer to Wikipedia's Free Edu category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_educational_software
What do you think?
This looks like a rather long url for a leaflet, perhaps we could set up fsfe.org/freeedsw and redirect that to the above wilipedia page.
if you have 3 fold page then the length of any URL and other things is limited to the width of 1 pane on the flyer.
Paul
I think it will be beneficial to add this link to leaflet. However it doesn't solve above problem as this wiki site list only educational software and IMHO we should address general purpose software as well.
Best, cmd
[Prism break] https://prism-break.org/en/ _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Hello Paul,
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 09:32:25AM +0000, Paul Sutton wrote:
One option to avoid this dilemma would be to refer to Wikipedia's Free Edu category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_educational_software
What do you think?
This looks like a rather long url for a leaflet, perhaps we could set up fsfe.org/freeedsw and redirect that to the above wilipedia page.
Yes, thanks for that comment. We do have an URL shortener in place that can be used for that (e.g.: l.fsfe.org/edu).
Greetings,
Guido
On 22 October 2015 at 16:18, Paul Sutton zleap@zleap.net wrote:
- The new curriculum in the UK (http://torbaytechjam.org.uk/curriculu
m/ ) has a focus partly on using computers responsibly, so you could argue that using free software comes under this, as you are not taking the irresponsible step of using pirated software for example. There is also a focus on safety so again by using free software you can examine the software, and make improvements if there are problems, the software is transparent in what it is doing and how it works.
What this actually means in practice is getting young kids working in Scratch.
Scratch is AWESOME. There's been a zillion simplified languages that claim to be for children, but Scratch appears to be the one that actually works.
I wrote a blog post about it here: http://reddragdiva.tumblr.com/post/127964136013/it-turns-out-scratch-is-prob...
My daughter's pretty bright at school, but talking to her teacher he says it catches the interest of the academically-average and academically-not-so-good kids as well. And at that age (7-8yo), interest is Job #1.
Trouble is that Scratch is not quite a fully free stack yet. The old Scratch 1 is under GPLv2 and something called the Scratch Source Code License, I don't know what Scratch 2 is under. My daughter runs the standalone at home as the Windows version running under Wine.
But! One thing the Scratch website does is encourage community and collaboration. Take others' work, remix and improve it. It's her favourite social network site. It gets kids used to *sharing and improving*. That being the original point of software freedom, you'll recall. So I would suggest tactically we see what it takes to free Scratch.
(I need to dig up the story of getting Scratch into schools - apparently it was a years-long effort, and apparently I know people who know people who dragged it through and made it happen.)
- d.
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On 12/14/2015 07:06 PM, David Gerard wrote:
On 22 October 2015 at 16:18, Paul Sutton zleap@zleap.net wrote:
Trouble is that Scratch is not quite a fully free stack yet. The old Scratch 1 is under GPLv2 and something called the Scratch Source Code License, I don't know what Scratch 2 is under. My daughter runs the standalone at home as the Windows version running under Wine.
Scratch2 is licensed under GPLv2[1].
But! One thing the Scratch website does is encourage community and collaboration. Take others' work, remix and improve it. It's her favourite social network site. It gets kids used to *sharing and improving*. That being the original point of software freedom, you'll recall. So I would suggest tactically we see what it takes to free Scratch.
Yeah, it could be good argument, but as Guido mentioned, FSFE shouldn't encourage use of specific software. That's why it could be hard to use Scratch as an example.
Best, cmd
[1] https://github.com/LLK/scratch-flash
- -- Cezary Drak | Software Liberation Maniacs Kraków All my messages should be signed with OpenPGP. The lack of or broken signature means someone might be impersonating me.
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On 12/15/2015 11:36 AM, Cezary Drak wrote:
On 12/14/2015 07:06 PM, David Gerard wrote:
On 22 October 2015 at 16:18, Paul Sutton zleap@zleap.net wrote:
Trouble is that Scratch is not quite a fully free stack yet. The old Scratch 1 is under GPLv2 and something called the Scratch Source Code License, I don't know what Scratch 2 is under. My daughter runs the standalone at home as the Windows version running under Wine.
Scratch2 is licensed under GPLv2[1].
Sorry for double post. I dig little deeper into Scratch 2 and it turns out it encourages use of non-free technology. Flash to be specific. Also MIT trademarks make modifying code little harder, although it's not a big issue. Because of that we should not use it in a leaflet.
cmd - -- Cezary Drak | Software Liberation Maniacs Kraków All my messages should be signed with OpenPGP. The lack of or broken signature means someone might be impersonating me.
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Kids ruby http://kidsruby.com/ is free software and has source code available, not sure if it is GPL 2 or 3, I think it may be.
Scratch is designed for complete beginners and ruby is a nice step up from that perhaps then python as the next step up from there.
Paul
On 15/12/15 11:21, Cezary Drak wrote:
On 12/15/2015 11:36 AM, Cezary Drak wrote:
On 12/14/2015 07:06 PM, David Gerard wrote:
On 22 October 2015 at 16:18, Paul Sutton zleap@zleap.net wrote:
Trouble is that Scratch is not quite a fully free stack yet. The old Scratch 1 is under GPLv2 and something called the Scratch Source Code License, I don't know what Scratch 2 is under. My daughter runs the standalone at home as the Windows version running under Wine.
Scratch2 is licensed under GPLv2[1].
Sorry for double post. I dig little deeper into Scratch 2 and it turns out it encourages use of non-free technology. Flash to be specific. Also MIT trademarks make modifying code little harder, although it's not a big issue. Because of that we should not use it in a leaflet.
cmd _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
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Torbay Tech Jam http://torbaytechjam.org.uk Festival of Code 2016 1st - 5th August 2016 http://www.yrs.io
On Tuesday 15. December 2015 12.34.55 Paul Sutton wrote:
Kids ruby http://kidsruby.com/ is free software and has source code available, not sure if it is GPL 2 or 3, I think it may be.
Scratch is designed for complete beginners and ruby is a nice step up from that perhaps then python as the next step up from there.
I know that there is a certain amount of work going into Python-related projects in this area. There's Reeborg, for instance:
http://reeborg.ca/docs/en/ https://github.com/aroberge/reeborg
And the BBC Micro Bit will apparently support running Micropython:
http://micropython.org/ https://mail.python.org/pipermail/microbit/
Of course, the Micro Bit illustrates some of the problems faced when recommending technology: it's being developed in a closed project, it will only be generally available "at some point", and it might not be open hardware even after being made available for sale. (And a notorious proprietary software vendor is one of the project partners, of course.)
Maybe case studies are an interesting strategy for the flyer, although they may also seem like recommendations for those wanting a ready-to-use solution, and so caution is still required.
Paul
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On 15/12/15 11:54, Paul Boddie wrote:
On Tuesday 15. December 2015 12.34.55 Paul Sutton wrote:
Kids ruby http://kidsruby.com/ is free software and has source code available, not sure if it is GPL 2 or 3, I think it may be.
Scratch is designed for complete beginners and ruby is a nice step up from that perhaps then python as the next step up from there.
I know that there is a certain amount of work going into Python-related projects in this area. There's Reeborg, for instance:
http://reeborg.ca/docs/en/ https://github.com/aroberge/reeborg
And the BBC Micro Bit will apparently support running Micropython:
http://micropython.org/ https://mail.python.org/pipermail/microbit/
Of course, the Micro Bit illustrates some of the problems faced when recommending technology: it's being developed in a closed project, it will only be generally available "at some point", and it might not be open hardware even after being made available for sale. (And a notorious proprietary software vendor is one of the project partners, of course.)
Maybe case studies are an interesting strategy for the flyer, although they may also seem like recommendations for those wanting a ready-to-use solution, and so caution is still required.
Paul
Indeed the microbit was due for release back in October but has been delayed, the 2nd issue is that it really could do with being in the hands of hackers / techies / teachers and certainly some of the more technically literate kids out there first so they can get used to using it and start forming a user support community before the main release. Just giving some to pi / tech jam type events would address thi s.
The Pi zero has kind of stolen the show on this, £4 each and given away on magazines a major coup, it is also proven technology, so what runs on the Pi will also run on the Pi zero so it is ideal for embedded systems. in that respect.
I think just as the facebook logo (for example) is widely recognised we need things like the open hardware logo equally out there so people see it and know what it means, and ideally understand what it means so we have a sort of open hardware certified, i think the Arduino fits this category.
I would much rather get behind the Pi / Arduino / Micropython boards which are open to everyone to get hold of,
Paul
On Tuesday 15. December 2015 13.19.00 Paul Sutton wrote:
Indeed the microbit was due for release back in October but has been delayed, the 2nd issue is that it really could do with being in the hands of hackers / techies / teachers and certainly some of the more technically literate kids out there first so they can get used to using it and start forming a user support community before the main release. Just giving some to pi / tech jam type events would address thi s.
There are people doing things with them:
https://microworldtour.github.io/about.html
I don't really think that sharing five devices is sufficient, however.
The Pi zero has kind of stolen the show on this, £4 each and given away on magazines a major coup, it is also proven technology, so what runs on the Pi will also run on the Pi zero so it is ideal for embedded systems. in that respect.
The magazine thing was quite a stunt, and I mean that in both a positive and a negative way. There are a few people unhappy with unavailability and the "stampede of the herd" they experienced when trying to get one.
It also makes me wonder what the goal really is with the Zero. Sure, they've managed to dump a load of gear on everyone, but even though it makes cost and hardware availability even less of an issue, it gets to the point where more hardware doesn't solve the problems people actually have. Here, relatively little appears to have been done, and I have to give the Micro Bit people slightly more credit.
I think just as the facebook logo (for example) is widely recognised we need things like the open hardware logo equally out there so people see it and know what it means, and ideally understand what it means so we have a sort of open hardware certified, i think the Arduino fits this category.
Arduino is currently in a state of turmoil, with the arduino.cc people feuding with the arduino.org people, and with the new Genuino trademark being introduced because the .org people own the Arduino trademark in Italy/Europe.
I would much rather get behind the Pi / Arduino / Micropython boards which are open to everyone to get hold of,
Well, Raspberry Pi is a captive ecosystem that has only worked because of the vendor backing the initiative making it very cheap. I'm still an enthusiast of the Acorn computers of the 1980s, but repeating a reliance on a single vendor would be a mistake.
I certainly think that the BBC should have supported existing open hardware boards. There would be potentially interesting add-ons for the Micro Bit that people could be developing right now, but only the partners have the boards, and so one might easily have the impression that they're just carving up the spoils for themselves.
Furthermore, the existing boards have communities and products already available for them. Here, I would argue that the vendors of those boards haven't really been coherent enough: it's almost like each new Arduino board is a variation for the sake of it; Adafruit keeps coming out with new AVR products when they're already "a dime a dozen". But Adafruit at least has some good documentation and Free Software resources available. (I also like Pololu's products for the generally good support level, if you've also heard of them.)
I think that there is a place for the microcontroller boards because they allow an emphasis on the basics, and the Micro Bit isn't an unreasonable idea, although it was originally conceived as a wearable thing - something that isn't practical with the more ambitious single-board computers - but that has been de-emphasised, perhaps undermining its case somewhat.
Anyway, sorry to take over the thread with all this!
Paul