Hi!
I think it was not a good idea at all to change the "Join the ..." to "Become a supporter".
My point is that "being a member" of something (even if just an associate one) suggests a much stronger bound than being just a "supporter". So I think using phrases as "Join the FSFE", "become a(n associate) member" etc is way more compelling for most of the people.
In my view "supporter" is someone outside of the circle while "any-kind-of member" is someone who is inside of the circle. So I do believe demoting "fellowship members" to mere "supporters" made this status too cold and less compelling.
I think FSF is doing this much better. If you visit fsf.org this time of the year you immediately run into a very encouraging and inviting banner about joining them.
I really miss this inviting spirit from fsfe.org. (Also, why is no similar banner on fsfe.org in the last two months of every year?)
I think recruiting members and encouraging people to donate is important. So it worth making extra efforts to doing it right.
What do you think?
Best, Gergely
On 30/11/17 16:26, Gergely Székely wrote:
Hi!
I think it was not a good idea at all to change the "Join the ..." to "Become a supporter".
Asking people to join means they should have an equal status. The current constitution doesn't treat all members equally (a GA member has a different legal status than a fellowship member, supporter or volunteer).
Using the word "Join", therefore, is unhelpful and some people may even feel deceived.
My point is that "being a member" of something (even if just an associate one) suggests a much stronger bound than being just a "supporter". So I think using phrases as "Join the FSFE", "become a(n associate) member" etc is way more compelling for most of the people.
In my view "supporter" is someone outside of the circle while "any-kind-of member" is someone who is inside of the circle. So I do believe demoting "fellowship members" to mere "supporters" made this status too cold and less compelling.
I think FSF is doing this much better. If you visit fsf.org this time of the year you immediately run into a very encouraging and inviting banner about joining them.
What is the legal status of joining FSF? Is every member equal, every member can vote at the annual meeting?
I really miss this inviting spirit from fsfe.org. (Also, why is no similar banner on fsfe.org in the last two months of every year?)
Facebook invites people to join. Is it good for them? Of course not. Appearing friendly while having no integrity is a common business model though.
I think recruiting members and encouraging people to donate is important. So it worth making extra efforts to doing it right.
What do you think?
A motion passed at the recent GA meeting aims to change the way people can become members in future:
15. Proposal to reform FSFE's governance structure Proposal: FSFE will reform it’s organisational structure to accommodate a wider base of membership, and separate between membership and the governing organs. To achieve that, FSFE will prepare and propose the necessary changes to the bylaws for adoption at the 2018 general assembly. FSFE will prepare and implement the vetting and acceptance of the existing contributor base into the organisation as members. FSFE will prepare and implement the first board elections to be held at the 2018 or a later general assembly. These tasks will be carried out by the executive director and president in cooperation with the current GA.
Result: 10 for, 5 against, 8 abstentions
After that is completed it will hopefully be safe to use the word "Join" again without any ambiguity.
Regards,
Daniel
As has been pointed out before, the FSF doesn't have this problem with "Join" implying equal status. So I'd trust them on this, as native speakers :-)
Best Jonas
On November 30, 2017 4:43:23 PM GMT+01:00, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.pro wrote:
On 30/11/17 16:26, Gergely Székely wrote:
Hi!
I think it was not a good idea at all to change the "Join the ..." to "Become a supporter".
Asking people to join means they should have an equal status. The current constitution doesn't treat all members equally (a GA member has a different legal status than a fellowship member, supporter or volunteer).
Using the word "Join", therefore, is unhelpful and some people may even feel deceived.
My point is that "being a member" of something (even if just an associate one) suggests a much stronger bound than being just a "supporter". So I think using phrases as "Join the FSFE", "become
a(n
associate) member" etc is way more compelling for most of the people.
In my view "supporter" is someone outside of the circle while "any-kind-of member" is someone who is inside of the circle. So I do believe demoting "fellowship members" to mere "supporters" made this status too cold and less compelling.
I think FSF is doing this much better. If you visit fsf.org this time
of
the year you immediately run into a very encouraging and inviting
banner
about joining them.
What is the legal status of joining FSF? Is every member equal, every member can vote at the annual meeting?
I really miss this inviting spirit from fsfe.org. (Also, why is no similar banner on fsfe.org in the last two months of every year?)
Facebook invites people to join. Is it good for them? Of course not. Appearing friendly while having no integrity is a common business model though.
I think recruiting members and encouraging people to donate is
important.
So it worth making extra efforts to doing it right.
What do you think?
A motion passed at the recent GA meeting aims to change the way people can become members in future:
- Proposal to reform FSFE's governance structure
Proposal: FSFE will reform it’s organisational structure to accommodate a wider base of membership, and separate between membership and the governing organs. To achieve that, FSFE will prepare and propose the necessary changes to the bylaws for adoption at the 2018 general assembly. FSFE will prepare and implement the vetting and acceptance of the existing contributor base into the organisation as members. FSFE will prepare and implement the first board elections to be held at the 2018 or a later general assembly. These tasks will be carried out by the executive director and president in cooperation with the current GA.
Result: 10 for, 5 against, 8 abstentions
After that is completed it will hopefully be safe to use the word "Join" again without any ambiguity.
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Jonas Öberg Free Software Foundation Europe | jonas@fsfe.org Your support enables our work (fsfe.org/join)
On 30/11/17 16:55, Jonas Oberg wrote:
As has been pointed out before, the FSF doesn't have this problem with "Join" implying equal status. So I'd trust them on this, as native speakers :-)
This page has a link to their articles and bylaws:
https://www.fsf.org/about/financial
http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/fsf-incorporate.pdf
http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/fsf-amended-bylaws-current.pdf
The page was not so easy to find and the documents are scanned so not easily searched electronically.
Nonetheless, these documents do explain how to become an FSF member and what rights members have.
The first page of their Form 990 gives some statistics on the number of members and volunteers:
http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/Form990_FY2016.pdf
9 voting members, 14 staff, 2000 volunteers
Regards,
Daniel
Right, the point is that "Join" as they use it doesn't really map, as far as I can tell, to either of these categories. You don't become a member, you definitely aren't staff, and I think volunteers only count those volunteering, not necessarily those contributing financially. Either way, you don't get a say in the FSF board.
Perhaps unsurprisingly the FSFE is structured similarly :-) But yes, there are also proposals to change this.
Best Jonas
On November 30, 2017 5:13:06 PM GMT+01:00, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.pro wrote:
On 30/11/17 16:55, Jonas Oberg wrote:
As has been pointed out before, the FSF doesn't have this problem
with "Join" implying equal status. So I'd trust them on this, as native speakers :-)
This page has a link to their articles and bylaws:
https://www.fsf.org/about/financial
http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/fsf-incorporate.pdf
http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/fsf-amended-bylaws-current.pdf
The page was not so easy to find and the documents are scanned so not easily searched electronically.
Nonetheless, these documents do explain how to become an FSF member and what rights members have.
The first page of their Form 990 gives some statistics on the number of members and volunteers:
http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/Form990_FY2016.pdf
9 voting members, 14 staff, 2000 volunteers
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ Discussion mailing list Discussion@lists.fsfe.org https://lists.fsfe.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Jonas Öberg Free Software Foundation Europe | jonas@fsfe.org Your support enables our work (fsfe.org/join)
Hi Jonas,
Jonas Oberg jonas@fsfe.org writes:
As has been pointed out before, the FSF doesn't have this problem with "Join" implying equal status. So I'd trust them on this, as native speakers :-)
That is true. However, they use the term "associate member" instead of supporter, so that is why they use the term "join" without as much of an issue. I guess we could say "Join the FSFE as a Supporter" or something similar.
Happy hacking! Florian
Thank you for your answers.
Now I understand that "become a supporter" is better than "join the fellowship" because it is less confusing since (full) members have a vote and supporting ("members") and volunteer ("members") don't... but that is just the legal aspect of the problem which can easily be avoided by making it clear that there are different levels of being part of the FSFE movement with different rights.
I would like to emphasize the emotional aspect of this issue which I think is at least as important (but probably more important).
Terms like "fellow" and "associate member" generates the feeling that if someone become one, then they become part of the team/movement/whatever and are allowed think and communicate that "We are doing this or that." when FSFE do something great, say the PMPC campaign, or that "We should do this or that better", say recruiting supporters. ;-) The same goes to volunteers I think they also should feel to be some kind of "members" (part of the team) and not just outside supporters who give you their time instead of their money.
I think along this line you could make the supporter/volunteer status more inviting compelling and improve the requiting. For this Florian's suggestion "Join FSFE as a Supporter/Volunteer" is good because that shows you consider Supporters and Volunteers as "being inside the circle" (part of the team).
This may sound as a minor thing but I think it is not. In your "business model" supporters and volunteers are important assets so it is worth making these statuses really compelling (and making them feel that they are (at least in a loose sense) part of FSFE is something compelling, I think).
Also I think it would be a good idea to put a nice recruiting banner to the top of the site in the end (last couple of months) of every year. These kind of banners show that you value (both one time and recurrent) supporters and think they are important (which is also compelling because people not just like to be part of something great but also like to feel important).
Sorry for the long email but I do root for Free Software and all the supporting movements. So I would really like to help you to get more supporters to get more resources to fight for Free Software and I think this is an important point that you seem to miss.
Best, Gergely
Ps.: By the way, I do would like to write "we" when referring to FSFE instead of "you" but currently I don't feel authorized to do so. :-(
* Daniel Pocock [2017-11-30 16:43 +0100]:
I think recruiting members and encouraging people to donate is important. So it worth making extra efforts to doing it right.
What do you think?
# Donations
About donations, yes, you are right, we are behind our schedule this year and hopefully you'll soon read more about that, because yes: we need donations by many supporters to keep us independent and enable our work in the next months again.
So everybody here who wants to support us financially, become a supporter now: https://fsfe.org/join
# Membership
A motion passed at the recent GA meeting aims to change the way people can become members in future:
[...]
That is just one of the motions. The other one was:
18. Future of Fellowship seats (Council)
The executive should prepare a constitution change to remove the Fellowship seats.
Result: 20 for, 0 against, 3 abstentions
See our vice president's blog post http://blogs.fsfe.org/repentinus/english/2017/11/06/background-for-future-ch... for more information.
Regards, Matthias
(Re-sending this e-mail because I wrongly addressed the first)
Op 30-11-17 om 16:26 schreef Gergely Székely:
I think it was not a good idea at all to change the "Join the ..." to "Become a supporter".
My point is that "being a member" of something (even if just an associate one) suggests a much stronger bound than being just a "supporter". So I think using phrases as "Join the FSFE", "become a(n associate) member" etc is way more compelling for most of the people.
I agree partially. There is a small problem, however: Previously, it was unclear that one could "join" the FSFE without making financial contributions. Upon clicking the "join" button, you were prompted to make a donation, and this was the only way into the fellowship.
And upon joining the FSFE (i.e., becoming a fellow), you would not have equal status to all other FSFE members. Staffers and members of the GA would have a say in the FSFE's goings-on, whereas fellows didn't, not really. Thus "joining" the FSFE was kind of false advertising.
Thus the logical solutions were twofold:
1. Allow people to become fellows without making financial contributions, and grant fellows voting rights.
2. Change the wording to better reflect reality.
Understandably, option 1 isn't very appealing.
However, I would be in _full_ support of reinstating the usage of "fellow" for volunteers who contribute time and effort. But then, maybe "volunteer" also cuts it?
I really miss this inviting spirit from fsfe.org. (Also, why is no similar banner on fsfe.org in the last two months of every year?)
If you can contribute such a banner, we would be extremely happy to add it. Unfortunately it's outside of my abilities. I'm not a web developer.
I think recruiting members and encouraging people to donate is important. So it worth making extra efforts to doing it right.
I agree
Yours sincerely,
On 01/12/17 10:28, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
(Re-sending this e-mail because I wrongly addressed the first)
Op 30-11-17 om 16:26 schreef Gergely Székely:
I think it was not a good idea at all to change the "Join the ..." to "Become a supporter".
My point is that "being a member" of something (even if just an associate one) suggests a much stronger bound than being just a "supporter". So I think using phrases as "Join the FSFE", "become a(n associate) member" etc is way more compelling for most of the people.
I agree partially. There is a small problem, however: Previously, it was unclear that one could "join" the FSFE without making financial contributions. Upon clicking the "join" button, you were prompted to make a donation, and this was the only way into the fellowship.
And upon joining the FSFE (i.e., becoming a fellow), you would not have equal status to all other FSFE members. Staffers and members of the GA would have a say in the FSFE's goings-on, whereas fellows didn't, not really. Thus "joining" the FSFE was kind of false advertising.
It is even more than that: because the "Join" click was immediately followed by a request for a recurring payment, people would be very likely to feel the recurring payment is like a membership fee and gives them a right to vote.
Thus the logical solutions were twofold:
Allow people to become fellows without making financial contributions, and grant fellows voting rights.
Change the wording to better reflect reality.
Understandably, option 1 isn't very appealing.
However, I would be in _full_ support of reinstating the usage of "fellow" for volunteers who contribute time and effort. But then, maybe "volunteer" also cuts it?
I really miss this inviting spirit from fsfe.org. (Also, why is no similar banner on fsfe.org in the last two months of every year?)
If you can contribute such a banner, we would be extremely happy to add it. Unfortunately it's outside of my abilities. I'm not a web developer.
I think recruiting members and encouraging people to donate is important. So it worth making extra efforts to doing it right.
I agree
Another idea that was raised: keep the "Join" buttons and the "Join" page, but make it very clear on the page what people can do, e.g. give them boxes they can tick:
[ ] I want to become a financial supporter but not voting member
[ ] I want to volunteer
[ ] I want to apply for a job or internship
[ ] I want to attend meetings in my town
[ ] I want to become a voting member
Regards,
Daniel
* Daniel Pocock [2017-12-01 11:32 +0100]:
Another idea that was raised: keep the "Join" buttons and the "Join" page, but make it very clear on the page what people can do, e.g. give them boxes they can tick:
[ ] I want to become a financial supporter but not voting member [ ] I want to volunteer [ ] I want to apply for a job or internship [ ] I want to attend meetings in my town [ ] I want to become a voting member
Do you mean something like https://fsfe.org/contribute/ ? (We had the idea in the past to also have a longer list of todo items people could easily help with, and had an "activity" issues tracker for some time.)
Regards, Matthias
On 01/12/17 13:20, Matthias Kirschner wrote:
- Daniel Pocock [2017-12-01 11:32 +0100]:
Another idea that was raised: keep the "Join" buttons and the "Join" page, but make it very clear on the page what people can do, e.g. give them boxes they can tick:
[ ] I want to become a financial supporter but not voting member [ ] I want to volunteer [ ] I want to apply for a job or internship [ ] I want to attend meetings in my town [ ] I want to become a voting member
Do you mean something like https://fsfe.org/contribute/ ? (We had the idea in the past to also have a longer list of todo items people could easily help with, and had an "activity" issues tracker for some time.)
The main page of fsfe.org has "Become a supporter"
Maybe the button could say "Contribute" with a link to that page instead?
The button currently links here:
https://fsfe.org/fellowship/ams/join.php?ams=join
and that page has "join" in the URL and it doesn't provide any link to the /contribute page
Regards,
Daniel
# Daniel Pocock [2017-12-01 13:27 +0100]:
https://fsfe.org/fellowship/ams/join.php?ams=join
and that page has "join" in the URL and it doesn't provide any link to the /contribute page
Yeah, the /join pages lack a lot of useful information, features, and links. This is because it is built on our old Account Management System which is hard to maintain, not translatable, and tricky to integrate with our normal web pages.
However, we are working on improving the situation by shifting to a whole new AMS. This will also make it much easier to choose between different options, e.g. becoming a volunteer or contributing in other ways. Please read the AMS Hackers' wiki page for more info: https://wiki.fsfe.org/Teams/Ams-Hackers
Best, Max
Hi Carmen,
Carmen Bianca Bakker carmenbianca@fsfe.org writes:
However, I would be in _full_ support of reinstating the usage of "fellow" for volunteers who contribute time and effort. But then, maybe "volunteer" also cuts it?
We discussed this choice of terminology many times. Some people really like it, some people, like me dislike it because "Fellowship" makes people at best think of Lord of the Rings and at worst makes them think of some sort of religious group which we very much don't want to be. I think it was a good idea to make the switch and also a good idea to not differentiate between people who donate money to us and people who donate their time. Both are valuable contributions that help us fulfill our mission.
Happy hacking! Florian
On 01/12/17 16:06, Florian Snow wrote:
Hi Carmen,
Carmen Bianca Bakker carmenbianca@fsfe.org writes:
However, I would be in _full_ support of reinstating the usage of "fellow" for volunteers who contribute time and effort. But then, maybe "volunteer" also cuts it?
We discussed this choice of terminology many times. Some people really like it, some people, like me dislike it because "Fellowship" makes people at best think of Lord of the Rings and at worst makes them think of some sort of religious group which we very much don't want to be. I think it was a good idea to make the switch and also a good idea to not differentiate between people who donate money to us and people who donate their time. Both are valuable contributions that help us fulfill our mission.
The real problem is that both "supporter" and "fellow" are ambiguous. When FSFE is using either of these words, we are actually talking about recurring donors.
For me, these words have clear meanings:
Donor = somebody who gives money
Volunteer = somebody who gives time
Member = somebody who has a vote in the AGM
Join = become a Member
Any other words like "Supporter" and "Fellow" appear to be marketing and need to be qualified whenever they are used in the web site or other materials.
Regards,
Daniel
Hi,
Didn't we have that discussion half a year ago?
On Freitag, 1. Dezember 2017 16:15:44 CET Daniel Pocock wrote:
For me, these words have clear meanings:
Donor = somebody who gives money Volunteer = somebody who gives time Member = somebody who has a vote in the AGM
Supporter = somebody who gives money or time
Both donors and volunteers are supporters. Well, almost: "donors" can mean both persons (like many of us on this list) and other entities (e.g. companies donating to the FSFE). I think the correct term for "somebody who gives money" is "sustaining member" (which does nothing to prevent further confusion).
Join = become a Member
Not a native speaker, but I thought "Join as a <xyz>" was unambiguous and clear?
Any other words like "Supporter" and "Fellow" appear to be marketing and need to be qualified whenever they are used in the web site or other materials.
I really don't think that "Supporter" needs to be qualified. True - it's not as narrow a term as "Volunteer", but for a reason.
Cheers, Johannes
Hi everyone,
I agree with everything you wrote, Johannes. I wanted to write the same thing but you saved me some time. :-)
Happy hacking! Florian