Hi all,
I was reading an interview with RMS on ZNet (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9350), and at one point the interviewer poses a question which is interesting, in many ways:
"How would you respond to those who suggest that free software activists lack a sense of proportion? Given the vast scale and suffering of war, invasions, occupations, poverty, doesn't the freedom to use computers pale to insignificance?"
My own background before being interested in free software was that of social activism, and one thing is definitely true: Free software may be a prerequisite for a free society, but does not in and of itself guarantee a free society.
Corporations and states might give us free software while tying our hands in other ways, and we might want to work against wars, censorship, corporate domination of the media and of the media agenda, etc., before working for software freedom. So is software freedom the wrong place to put the emphasis in the light of all the other problems we might fight, or might it be?
best regards Carsten
On 22-Sep-2007, Carsten Agger wrote:
(http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9350) ...
"How would you respond to those who suggest that free software activists lack a sense of proportion? Given the vast scale and suffering of war, invasions, occupations, poverty, doesn't the freedom to use computers pale to insignificance?"
I like Richard's response in that interview, and agree with it.
Everyone has their particular talents; it falls to those who have talent in a particular area to use those talents rightly. To dilute one's efforts among too many areas, especially areas one has little or no talent for, is also indicative of a lack of proportion.
My own background before being interested in free software was that of social activism, and one thing is definitely true: Free software may be a prerequisite for a free society, but does not in and of itself guarantee a free society.
I'd say that's true of pretty much any element of freedom. That it is true for some particular element of freedom doesn't imply that focus on it is disproportionate.
Corporations and states might give us free software while tying our hands in other ways,
That merely implies that we must fight against them tying our hands in any manner. It doesn't mean that free software — software that actually respects the freedom of all its recipients — is somehow less free, or that fighting to achieve it is disproportionate.
and we might want to work against wars, censorship, corporate domination of the media and of the media agenda, etc., before working for software freedom.
I reject the implied dichotomy here as false. I would replace "before" with "while also".
So is software freedom the wrong place to put the emphasis in the light of all the other problems we might fight, or might it be?
That depends on the individual. If someone's abilities allow them to do more good promoting software freedom than by fighting some other cause, I'd say that's a decision both rational and beneficial to themselves and society.
So is software freedom the wrong place to put the emphasis in the light of all the other problems we might fight, or might it be?
definitely not assuming that the meaning of "we" is the people on this mailinglist and similar mailinglist - this depends on the personal talents like Ben emphasized.
I'd like to contribute a further review on the term "freedom" to your mail. In my opinion it is not as subordinate as the interviewer on zdnet put it in his questions.
On the one hand all the grievances he introduces are means to minimize the personal freedom of the victims in a very existential way. Poverty diminishes the life to a search for food and triggers envy, that can lead to hate. Furthermore it most often leads to starvation and death - which is the ultimate loss of freedom - the freedom to live. The same is valid for war, invasion and occupation which almost necessarily leads to death (see above) and cuts the freedom of the occupied in almost any respect.
So in a way the target in the fight for free software is the same: helping people keep their freedom.
Now - this comparison between death and starvation on the one hand and software on the other might appear cynical. Propably this is what the interviewer meant to say.
But it is not: We live in a world of technology - and strictly speaking alway have. People don't owning the technology and the knowledge suffer from discrimination.
This is exactly, what we can observe in the so called developing world. Depending on the country it is necessary to teach the children reading and writing first of course. You can not use a computer if you can not read.
But there also exist lots of countries that are still discriminated against, because they can not afford the enormous prices the producers of proprietary software tend to take for their software and whats worse: they don't have a chance to develop this software for themself, because the proprietary software is closed source in the most cases. And if it is not they would be violate the licenses and copyrights of the software companies, if they start developing using that source.
So free software is not only a "nice to have" for the rich countries and their engineers. It's a necessity to let people in countries with a worse infrastructure to catch up the progress and by catching up improving their living conditions.
Free software is more than a toy. It's also more than a nice philosophy of people rich enough to afford philosophizing. Free software is a social necessity for globalized world. And therefore it has the same meaning for the society on this planet like the fight against the inequity and the suffering.
And by having set free software in this context the people working on it in their sparetime, the companies supporting it, and as a matter of course the people fighting for it like the fsf in the different countries earn the same respect like anybody else on earth, who tries to improve the world - or at least tiny bits of it.
Everything else is only a question of talents.
regards alexander
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Alexander Braun wrote:
I'd like to contribute a further review on the term "freedom" to your mail. In my opinion it is not as subordinate as the interviewer on zdnet put it in his questions.
Do you think many of ZDNet's readers see themselves as part of some movement -- anti-poverty, or anti-war, or for some other form of social change? Hint: This interview is made by ZNET -- the website of Z Communications: The Spirit of Resistance Lives.
On 9/25/07, Max Moritz Sievers mms@fsfe.org wrote:
Alexander Braun wrote:
I'd like to contribute a further review on the term "freedom" to your mail. In my opinion it is not as subordinate as the interviewer on zdnet put it in his questions.
Do you think many of ZDNet's readers see themselves as part of some movement -- anti-poverty, or anti-war, or for some other form of social change? Hint: This interview is made by ZNET -- the website of Z Communications: The Spirit of Resistance Lives.
Exactly - anyway, thanks for the response; I more or less agree myself - I asked the questiona because I am asked them frequently by people who are more or less activist on other fronts but are so used to an environment of proprietary software (Windows, Office, Photoshop, which have market shares around 90+ %) and wanted to hear some other angles to it ... but the truth is, that the people inclined to use free software are mainly technically inclined people - probably because less technically inclined people are easily discouraged, and some things (like installing a printer in some versions of GNU/Linux) seem unreasonably difficult to some people; so I try to argue, not that they necessarily should go through a technical challenge they couldn't always manage themselves without support, but that yes, it does make a difference ...
but because of this I think more widespread adoption of free software will come through adoption of GNU/Linux in the workplaces and in schools - which is, of course, also starting to happen (though not much here in Denmark, which is still very much a Microsoft country). - Hide quoted text -
best regards, Carsten
-- http://www.modspil.dk - fordi tiden kræver et MODSPIL!
Am Dienstag, den 25.09.2007, 14:17 +0200 schrieb Carsten Agger:
Do you think many of ZDNet's readers see themselves as part of some movement -- anti-poverty, or anti-war, or for some other form of social change? Hint: This interview is made by ZNET -- the website of Z Communications: The Spirit of Resistance Lives.
well that's true anyway
but the truth is, that the people inclined to use free software are mainly technically inclined people - probably because less technically inclined people are easily discouraged, and some things (like installing a printer in some versions of GNU/Linux) seem unreasonably difficult to some people; so I try to argue, not that they necessarily should go through a technical challenge they couldn't always manage themselves without support, but that yes, it does make a difference
well - surely there is a majority of technicians using GNU/Linux or any derivate. But I think lot's of people only are frightened by lot's of people always emphasizing, that Linux is so complicated.
This changes a little at the moment.
But the fact is, that not linux is so complicated, but computers are. Imho most people will work with a preinstalled system and don't have the knowledge, time or motivation to change very much despite the background picture. And that is ok this way, because they work on other tasks. People can't have expertise on every area.
People who master Windows surely will master Gnu/Linux. People who don't master GNU/Linux won't master Windows without help. They have to use support from others - independent from the software they use.
On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 02:17:44PM +0200, Carsten Agger wrote:
but the truth is, that the people inclined to use free software are mainly technically inclined people - probably because less technically inclined people are easily discouraged, and some things (like installing a printer in some versions of GNU/Linux) seem unreasonably difficult to some people; so I try to argue, not that they necessarily should go through a technical challenge they couldn't always manage themselves without support, but that yes, it does make a difference
Hi,
The real pink elephant in the middle of the room is that people who are not technically inclined can't add a printer in Windows. They get someone to do it (son, technitian, someone who makes at least an effort, etc...).
My girlfriend is a translator by education, and when I bought her a laptop I gave her a choice:
1) use Windows (without my tech support) 2) use GNU/Linux (with my tech support, if needed) 3) have both Windows & GNU/Linux (with my tech support, if needed, on the GNU/Linux part)
She installed Ubuntu, wiping the Windows XP that was pre-installed without even starting it one time.
This was over an year and half later, with one live migration of Ubuntu version in the middle (to 7.04).
The only tech support I _really_ needed to give her was telling her the SSID and key for the wi-fi network.
Rui
"Carsten Agger" agger@c.dk wrote: [...]
- I asked the questiona because I am asked them frequently by people
who are more or less activist on other fronts but are so used to an environment of proprietary software (Windows, Office, Photoshop, which have market shares around 90+ %) and wanted to hear some other angles to it ...
I think that's more thoughtlessness and ignorance of the free software alternatives, like when people use gmail instead of a free software webmail.
We could help ourselves here more, by building better directories of free software, reviews and associated articles. The FSF/UNESCO one is an opportunity that we're missing: I know the official directory needs to be tightly controlled to avoid embarrasment to its sponsors, but the data could be made freely-available (not the current FDL - we need to promote and interchange this data more widely than that allows) along with changelogs and easier feedback APIs, and the software that drives the database could be published as free software.
The best avenue for this sort of thing looks to me to be DOAP http://usefulinc.com/doap/ but I've been as bad as everyone else at heading in that direction so far.
Regards,
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 17:28 +0200, Giacomo Poderi wrote:
MJ Ray ha scritto:
I think that's more thoughtlessness and ignorance of the free software alternatives, like when people use gmail instead of a free software webmail.
[OT]Could you please mention some of these free software webmail, didn't find many
<marketing> www.bongo-project.org is already ok-ish and will be amazing eventually ;) </marketing>
Seriously, there are a number of different projects which work in different situations: SquirrelMail (a bit ugly, though) and Horde/et al. (which you can run on top of Kolab) are the best known ones.
Cheers,
Alex.
On Tuesday 25 September 2007 16:43, Alex Hudson wrote:
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 17:28 +0200, Giacomo Poderi wrote:
MJ Ray ha scritto:
I think that's more thoughtlessness and ignorance of the free software alternatives, like when people use gmail instead of a free software webmail.
[OT]Could you please mention some of these free software webmail, didn't find many
Seriously, there are a number of different projects which work in different situations: SquirrelMail (a bit ugly, though) and Horde/et al. (which you can run on top of Kolab) are the best known ones.
Comparing SquirrelMail to GMail is a bit unfair, IMHO. GMail offers a web interface, mailserver and hosting. With SquirrelMail (and Horde) you only get the web interface. Hosting is not covered with this solution.
I would compare GMail with other web mail providers, like GMX in Germany or Yahoo!. But I do not know any that offers a web interface (and backend) based on free software.
Cheers, Isabel
Isabel Drost mainec@isabel-drost.de wrote:
I would compare GMail with other web mail providers, like GMX in Germany or Yahoo!. But I do not know any that offers a web interface (and backend) based on free software.
I already posted three squirrelmail-using web mail providers!
There's http://www.ippimail.com/ (ad-supported) http://altern.org/ (AKA 3615 INTERNET, supported by sales of extra services) and http://www.phonecoop.coop/ (paid accounts, I'm agent AG471). I'm pretty sure all three use well-known free software on the backend too.
Hope this reaches you this time!
** Alex Hudson home@alexhudson.com [2007-09-25 16:59]:
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 17:28 +0200, Giacomo Poderi wrote:
MJ Ray ha scritto:
I think that's more thoughtlessness and ignorance of the free software alternatives, like when people use gmail instead of a free software webmail.
[OT]Could you please mention some of these free software webmail, didn't find many
<marketing> www.bongo-project.org is already ok-ish and will be amazing eventually ;) </marketing>
Seriously, there are a number of different projects which work in different situations: SquirrelMail (a bit ugly, though) and Horde/et al. (which you can run on top of Kolab) are the best known ones.
** end quote [Alex Hudson]
All good projects, but none are alternatives to Gmail since they are purely the application and not a service. Things like Operamail, Hotmail, etc. are comparable to Gmail, but clearly no better on an ethical stand point.
As an aside, if you are looking for a webmail application the best one I've come across so far by an order of magnitude is Roundcube[1]. Horde doesn't come near it in terms of ease of installation (in fact the hassle of putting the Horde framework on to then get IMP has put me off entirely(*) - perhaps if I wanted the full suite of applications, but last time I looked they were far from ready), and it makes the SquirrelMail look like something out of the ark. It is still in beta, but at rc1 at the moment.
[1] http://www.roundcube.net/ (#) (*) to be fair you can get it through apt-get in Debian (although it has tended to be noteably out of date) and probably similar with other distros, but I prefer putting web applications on by hand downloaded from the developers website (#) sorry Alex, Bongo does look promising, but is a way off from prime time at the moment - keep it up though :)
-- Paul Tansom | http://www.whaletales.co.uk/ ============================================
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 21:05 +0100, Paul Tansom wrote:
All good projects, but none are alternatives to Gmail since they are purely the application and not a service. Things like Operamail, Hotmail, etc. are comparable to Gmail, but clearly no better on an ethical stand point.
To be honest, the only thing stopping people offering them as a service is time and expertise: with stuff like the Amazon platform, it's extremely easy to deploy free software web mail at cost. It's theoretically very easy to take a piece of free software, offer it as a service, and you don't need to deploy any infrastructure.
The big difference is likely that very few people are going to want to pay for web mail. And if you want something for free, there's a quid pro quo - in the Google case, advertising (or whatever). So, if you want to offer a service based on free software, you're going to have to subsidise it heavily to get it off the ground.
I have to say, personally I don't see an ethical issue in there in free software terms. If Google were deploying Squirrelmail instead of their custom job, it would have all the same problems. If you want the service for 'free', you give up something non-monetary.
Cheers,
Alex.
** Alex Hudson home@alexhudson.com [2007-09-25 21:42]:
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 21:05 +0100, Paul Tansom wrote:
All good projects, but none are alternatives to Gmail since they are purely the application and not a service. Things like Operamail, Hotmail, etc. are comparable to Gmail, but clearly no better on an ethical stand point.
To be honest, the only thing stopping people offering them as a service is time and expertise: with stuff like the Amazon platform, it's extremely easy to deploy free software web mail at cost. It's theoretically very easy to take a piece of free software, offer it as a service, and you don't need to deploy any infrastructure.
The big difference is likely that very few people are going to want to pay for web mail. And if you want something for free, there's a quid pro quo - in the Google case, advertising (or whatever). So, if you want to offer a service based on free software, you're going to have to subsidise it heavily to get it off the ground.
I have to say, personally I don't see an ethical issue in there in free software terms. If Google were deploying Squirrelmail instead of their custom job, it would have all the same problems. If you want the service for 'free', you give up something non-monetary.
** end quote [Alex Hudson]
Agreed. I personally don't have any issue with Gmail, and I do use it myself, twice over actually as I am in the process of migrating one of my ADSL connections to an ISP that uses a branded Gmail service. The big thing about a free webmail service is how you pay for the disk space and bandwidth required. That bit was more mentioned in passing with reference to a bit not quoted from earlier in the thread :) My use of Gmail is actually quite low though, as I prefer to use my own domains for email, which sit on my own servers that are now running Roundcube (prior to that SquirrelMail, but I never found that a particularly attractive package to use - and that's not a reference to its lack of graphical appeal!).
Paul Tansom wrote:
All good projects, but none are alternatives to Gmail since they are purely the application and not a service. Things like Operamail, Hotmail, etc. are comparable to Gmail, but clearly no better on an ethical stand point.
pobox.com - squirrelmail on free software. recommended.
Giacomo Poderi poderi1980@yahoo.it wrote:
MJ Ray ha scritto:
I think that's more thoughtlessness and ignorance of the free software alternatives, like when people use gmail instead of a free software webmail.
[OT]Could you please mention some of these free software webmail, didn't find many
The main one I remember is ippimail.com who I think use squirrelmail, like my co-op does. Michael J Kaye reviewed it last year at http://cuttingfree.blogsome.com/2006/12/01/ippimail-free-software-web-mail-w... The venerable altern.org also use squirrelmail, but they seem short of staff and seem to have been spammed to blacklist-hell, although it's improved the last few weeks.
Others (not all free software) are included on http://noluv4google.com/article.php?id=800 which I linked from http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2006/google which I must update soon.
I agree with Alex that http://www.bongo-project.org/ should help matters, although I'm intermittently seeing simplepie warnings on their site lately.
Hope that helps,