Hello, I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding and free software: https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
regards, Nikos
On 22 de junio de 2014 17:47:47 GMT+01:00, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos nmav@gnutls.org wrote:
Hello, I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding and free software: https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
regards, Nikos
Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
Dear Nikos,
I am subscribed to the mailing list but I am unsure that this message will get through to the list as I am a member of fsf but not fsfe.
Thank you very much for the link! I have worked in FP7 projects and EU projects before and this is a good introduction for me as I always took part as a low level scientist. And I now want to be more involved.
One of the projects I colaborated with is http://gwyddion.net/ they are a group of mainly two from CMI. But they are involved in a lot of diffferent projects which improves gwyddion in many ways. On the proposals and deliverables they clearly state that all software will be GPL. I think, as you propose, it is a good idea to get fsfe involved. But as the talk says, you need someone experienced on H2020 accounting and burocracy. So maybe have fsfe and another experienced partner or maybe have them use the funding to hire an experienced project manager/accountant.
Good luck! Regards, Andrés Muñiz-Piniella
Hi Nikos,
thanks for the question!
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 06:47:47PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
Hello, I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding and free software: https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
tl;dr: Participating in EU projects usually isn't an efficient way for FSFE to achieve its goals. It makes sense for FSFE only when the project is 100% aligned with what we're trying to do; and even then, the administrative overhead is a big problem. We usually don't participate in such projects unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
FSFE has participated in a few FP6 and FP7 projects, e.g. SELF and STACS. Like pretty much everybody else, we don't yet have any experience yet with Horizon 2020 [1], which started only recently.
As far as I know, there have been some updates to the various funding schemes, but they haven't fundamentally changed, so I'm assuming that Horizon 2020 works mostly in the same way as FP7 did. I'm bound to find out more shortly.
When I'm talking about "EU projects" in this mail, I'm referring to FP6 / FP7 / Horizon 2020. There's a bunch of other unrelated funding schemes that are completely different.
We are frequently approached about becoming involved in EU projects; but we rarely do. Participating in such a project only makes sense for FSFE if the project is pretty much 100% aligned with things we want to do anyway. That's rarely the case.
Under the rules of these projects, the EU pays up to 100% of the staff time for the employees participating in the project, plus an overhead rate that goes toward administrative work related to the project. (That's if you're lucky. Under a lot of schemes, you only get 75%.)
The overhead rate -- which I guess is what you refer to when you say "secretarial work" -- goes toward handling the paperwork.
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. I hear that things are supposed to have gotten slightly better with Horizon 2020, but it's still *a lot*.
That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
The heaviest administrative workload is handled by the project coordinator, i.e. the leader of the consortium. When we participated in EU projects in the past, we did so as a simple partner in the consortium. That limits the paperwork somewhat, but it's still significant.
The staff time that the EU pays for can be used only for contributions to the project, both for working on the project's substance, and for administration. Otherwise taxpayers would be crying bloody murder about the abuse of public funds, and they'd be right.
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance our activities adn achieve our goals.
Best regards, Karsten
[1] The EC thought that "Horizon 2020" sounded sexier than "FP8".
On Wed, 2014-06-25 at 12:16 +0200, Karsten Gerloff wrote:
Hi Nikos,
thanks for the question!
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 06:47:47PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
Hello, I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding and free software: https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
tl;dr: Participating in EU projects usually isn't an efficient way for FSFE to achieve its goals. It makes sense for FSFE only when the project is 100% aligned with what we're trying to do; and even then, the administrative overhead is a big problem. We usually don't participate in such projects unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
[...]
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten, Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects, on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal entity to participate. The scope of horizon 2020 is so broad that improvement of existing free software is certainly within it.
Moreover, such projects often require partnerships with universities (with that I could help) something that would certainly help FSFE get new members and free software contributions.
regards, Nikos
Hi Nikos,
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:06:50PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten, Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects, on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone else) were better off if they participated through the university or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
The scope of horizon 2020 is so broad that improvement of existing free software is certainly within it
No doubt. Actually, I hope that we can engage in a few projects in the years ahead. But as I explained in my earlier mail, there are more effective ways for FSFE to achieve its goals.
Best regards, Karsten
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Karsten Gerloff gerloff@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Hi Nikos, On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:06:50PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten, Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects, on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone else) were better off if they participated through the university or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Ok, so if I understand you comment, the projects that have no company partners or university backing them up, there is no other way. It's good to know that funding for free software projects is outside the FSFE's goals.
regards, Nikos
Hi Nikos,
Am 26.06.2014 14:58, schrieb Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos:
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Karsten Gerloff gerloff@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Hi Nikos, On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:06:50PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten, Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects, on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone else) were better off if they participated through the university or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Ok, so if I understand you comment, the projects that have no company partners or university backing them up, there is no other way. It's good to know that funding for free software projects is outside the FSFE's goals.
I think you're misinterpreting here. "Getting money from EU" may sound sexy at first, but to put it simple, FSFE does not want to spend its scarce resources on filling out hundreds of pages of paperwork. This does not imply we wouldn't support free software projects with reasonable work.
Best wishes Michael
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 03:03:26PM +0200, Michael Kesper wrote:
Hi Nikos,
Am 26.06.2014 14:58, schrieb Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos:
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Karsten Gerloff gerloff@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Hi Nikos, On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:06:50PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
In short: An EU project usually isn't an efficient way to finance our activities adn achieve our goals.
Hello Karsten, Note that my question is not about FSFE participating to EU projects, on the contrary, I asked whether FSFE would be willing to handle the paperwork for other european free software projects that are not a legal entity to participate.
We've contemplated that scenario several times. In the end, it always turned out that the project's developers (and everyone else) were better off if they participated through the university or company partners in the project, rather than through FSFE.
Ok, so if I understand you comment, the projects that have no company partners or university backing them up, there is no other way. It's good to know that funding for free software projects is outside the FSFE's goals.
I think you're misinterpreting here. "Getting money from EU" may sound sexy at first, but to put it simple, FSFE does not want to spend its scarce resources on filling out hundreds of pages of paperwork. This does not imply we wouldn't support free software projects with reasonable work.
Right. Getting funding to Free Software projects is important; but surprisingly often, EU projects aren't an effective or efficient way of doing it.
That said, it seems that our work with the Commission over the past years has borne some fruit. We had been pushing the EC to address exactly the problem you're highlighting, and make it easier for Free Software developers to participate without a legal entity.
I discussed this again with an EC project officer, and he told me that in Horizon 2020, natural persons can participate. I haven't had a chance to review the documentation yet -- feel free to beat me to it :-)
Best regards, Karsten
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Karsten Gerloff gerloff@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Right. Getting funding to Free Software projects is important; but surprisingly often, EU projects aren't an effective or efficient way of doing it. That said, it seems that our work with the Commission over the past years has borne some fruit. We had been pushing the EC to address exactly the problem you're highlighting, and make it easier for Free Software developers to participate without a legal entity. I discussed this again with an EC project officer, and he told me that in Horizon 2020, natural persons can participate. I haven't had a chance to review the documentation yet -- feel free to beat me to it :-)
Well, at least from my experience with FP7 the typical submission was from a consortium of companies and universities, I wasn't aware of any single company/university projects. Getting into such a consortium as an individual may well be allowed by the EC now (I haven't checked, although I have no reason to doubt you), but it is not practical. Even if one would use his contacts from the previous projects (e.g. in my case from my previous job as a researcher) they would sympathize but would not allow him to join as an individual in such consortium. They understand as anyone else that it is risky and close to impossible for an individual to handle all the required paperwork correctly, and if he does there would probably not be any time for work. Without contacts already an individual is also doomed, as a big organization and university will speak collaborate with another big organization or university, not with Bob and John to make their project submissions. I understand though that this would require FSFE to become something that is currently not.
regards, Nikos
Hi Nikos,
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 06:36:06PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Karsten Gerloff gerloff@fsfeurope.org wrote:
Right. Getting funding to Free Software projects is important; but surprisingly often, EU projects aren't an effective or efficient way of doing it. That said, it seems that our work with the Commission over the past years has borne some fruit. We had been pushing the EC to address exactly the problem you're highlighting, and make it easier for Free Software developers to participate without a legal entity. I discussed this again with an EC project officer, and he told me that in Horizon 2020, natural persons can participate. I haven't had a chance to review the documentation yet -- feel free to beat me to it :-)
Well, at least from my experience with FP7 the typical submission was from a consortium of companies and universities, I wasn't aware of any single company/university projects.
Participating as an individual wasn't an option in FP7.
I've looked around the EC's Horizon 2020 pages for a bit. The first thing I've found is this:
http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/docs/h2020-funding-guide/grants/ap...
according to which the best options for individuals working on their own are
- European Research Council (ERC) research grants – support frontier research by individual researchers and teams.
- Marie Sklodowska-Curie actions – support researcher mobility. Besides research funding, scientists have the possibility to gain experience abroad and in the private sector, and to complete their training with competences useful for their careers.
The Curie grants did exist in FP7, too. Also, I haven't yet seen what the EC says about individuals participating as part of a consortium.
Interestingly, the EC apparently also plans to use prizes as an incentive mechanism, though no details seem to be currently available.
Best regards, Karsten
Karsten Gerloff gerloff@fsfeurope.org wrote:
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 06:47:47PM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote:
Hello, I was made aware of the following fosdem talk about EU research funding and free software: https://fosdem.org/2014/schedule/event/eu_research_funding/
My experience with EU projects is that it is infeasible for any small project to manage the bureaucracy required by the EU. Could FSFE assume that role? As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
tl;dr: Participating in EU projects usually isn't an efficient way for FSFE to achieve its goals. It makes sense for FSFE only when the project is 100% aligned with what we're trying to do; and even then, the administrative overhead is a big problem. We usually don't participate in such projects unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
[...]
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. I hear that things are supposed to have gotten slightly better with Horizon 2020, but it's still *a lot*.
That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
Sounds like the FSFE should have a staffer for this.
Fabian
Nikos:
[...] As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
Karsten:
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. [...] That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
Fabian:
Sounds like the FSFE should have a staffer for this.
Exactly.
I see a misunderstanding, that brought to Niko's other disappointed reply ("I understand [...] funding for free software projects is outside the FSFE's goals").
IIUC, Nikos' original proposal was to hire a person withing FSFE's offices for this kind of paid work. Karsten's reply makes me thing he perceived a request to help with current workforce (or participate in a project as a project member).
It's difficult to calibrate thing properly, but I understand Nikos' proposal: there are FS projects that may win EU funding if somebody does the [later paid for] paperwork. But the project itself can't hire a staff member for that, because of size contraints or legal position or whatever. So FSFE may develop the expectise and host the right people to do the paperwork on behalf of FS projects.
As said, it's difficult, because there may be too little or too much work to grant an employee, because FSFE must be careful about purely-free projects as opposed to mixed-license, and so on. But the basic idea is sound. Sure it take a serious effort to get it started, but the chances are high that the final effect for FS development and adoption is positive.
Thank you all for this discussion, I find all points of view worthwhile. /alessandro
Hi,
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 04:29:45PM +0200, Alessandro Rubini wrote:
Nikos:
[...] As far as I know all EU projects include funds for secretarial work, so that could be assumed by paid positions within FSFE. What do you think?
Karsten:
And boy, is there a lot of paperwork. [...] That's fine if you're working at a decent-sized university department or a company. There's usually a staffer there who handles everyone's paperwork for EU projects. But if you don't have such a person, then the paperwork will kill you.
Fabian:
Sounds like the FSFE should have a staffer for this.
Exactly.
I see a misunderstanding, that brought to Niko's other disappointed reply ("I understand [...] funding for free software projects is outside the FSFE's goals").
IIUC, Nikos' original proposal was to hire a person withing FSFE's offices for this kind of paid work. Karsten's reply makes me thing he perceived a request to help with current workforce (or participate in a project as a project member).
It's difficult to calibrate thing properly, but I understand Nikos' proposal: there are FS projects that may win EU funding if somebody does the [later paid for] paperwork. But the project itself can't hire a staff member for that, because of size contraints or legal position or whatever. So FSFE may develop the expectise and host the right people to do the paperwork on behalf of FS projects.
the problem is that this wouldn't actually be allowed, at least not under the FP7 rules I'm familiar with.
Formulated in the language used to talk about EU projects, Nikos' scenario looks like this:
FSFE becomes an official partner in the project. FSFE then contracts out the actual project work to the individual, and takes charge of the administrative work.
The problem here is that under the rules, project partners aren't allowed to subcontract out the actual project work (or only up to ca. 20% of the total).
FSFE could hire the individual to work on the project. This is something we might consider for projects where we really want to participate as FSFE. But it's not a solution for the scenario presented by Nikos, where FSFE takes on the administrative work for unrelated (for lack of a better word) Free Software projects.
I've gotten in touch with the European Commission and asked them about ways for individuals to participate in Horizon 2020 projects. While I haven't had time to review the rules in detail, the response is encouraging.
I was told that for natural persons, the funding rate would generally be 100% + overhead - that's as good as it gets. You just need a way to show that the personnel costs you're charging are reasonable.
Here's what my contact said:
See the rules for participation at http://ec.europa.eu/research/participants/data/ref/h2020/legal_basis/rules_p...
especially:
(13) 'legal entity' means any natural person, or any legal person created and recognised as such under national law, Union law or international law, which has legal personality and which may, acting in its own name, exercise rights and be subject to obligations;
Article 7 Legal entities that may participate in actions 1. Any legal entity, regardless of its place of establishment, or international organisation may participate in an action provided that the conditions laid down in this Regulation have been met, together with any conditions laid down in the relevant work programme or +work plan. [...]
Article 32 Owners of SMEs and natural persons without a salary The owners of SMEs who do not receive a salary, and other natural persons who do not receive a salary, may charge personnel costs on the basis of a unit cost.
Article 33 Unit costs 1. In accordance with Article 124 of Regulation (EU, Euratom) No 966/2012, the Commission may establish methods to determine unit costs based on:
(a) statistical data or similar objective means; (b) auditable historical data of the participant. 2. Direct eligible personnel costs may be financed on the basis of unit costs determined according to the participant's usual cost accounting practices, provided that they comply with the following cumulative criteria: (a) they are calculated on the basis of the total actual personnel costs recorded in the participant's general accounts which may be adjusted by the participant on the basis of budgeted or estimated elements according to the conditions defined by the Commission; (b) they comply with Articles 26 and 27; (c) they ensure compliance with the non-profit requirement and the avoidance of double funding of costs; (d) they are calculated with due regard to Article 31.
Best regards, Karsten