I guess this is better suited for the discussion mailinglist.
Thanks for mentioning, especially since the Pirate Bay is real landmark.
There are more sides to this story. Just take the view of Peter Sunde [1]. Not to dramatize the issue, but would this not be more similar to Silk Road having been shut down? Copyright laws are quite clear, you might like them to be different, but that is another debate. Then again the Pirate Bay also offered non-copyrighted material, and taking down is quite a severe measure.
It's not my call to make, but such a statement might lead to the wrong conclusions about the FSFE for the casual reader.
[1] http://blog.brokep.com/2014/12/09/the-pirate-bay-down-forever/
Kind regards, Nico
# Nico Rikken nico.rikken@fsfe.org [09.12.2014 @ 23:28]:
I guess this is better suited for the discussion mailinglist.
Thanks for moving this. I also included our PR list.
There are more sides to this story. Just take the view of Peter Sunde [1]. Not to dramatize the issue, but would this not be more similar to Silk Road having been shut down? Copyright laws are quite clear, you might like them to be different, but that is another debate. Then again the Pirate Bay also offered non-copyrighted material, and taking down is quite a severe measure.
I think the same way as Nico.
It's not my call to make, but such a statement might lead to the wrong conclusions about the FSFE for the casual reader.
Jep. I'm also not in the position of deciding what's worth a PR and what's not, but I also think that criticising the takedown wouldn't be a clever move to make for FSFE.
Of course, Free Software has many links to free culture. But TPB was a site with lots of illegal content. And of course we could (and should) criticise the current copyright laws but we shouldn't connect it with this event. It would provide our opponents with a target IMO.
Just my 2 cents.
Best, Max
Original mail of Andrés for better understanding:
It seems sweden police has closed The Pirate Bay, maybe the most important site about free culture in europe. I think FSFE has something to say about it. FSFE must at least send a press note to media establishing free culture and right to share as a fundamental right.
On 10/12/14 11:29, Max Mehl wrote:
Of course, Free Software has many links to free culture. But TPB was a site with lots of illegal content. And of course we could (and should) criticise the current copyright laws but we shouldn't connect it with this event. It would provide our opponents with a target IMO. Just my 2 cents. Best, Max Original mail of Andrés for better understanding:
If a PR can be written without direct criticism of the raid then it wouldn't be such a bad idea
There are many points that can be made, e.g. the consumers of digital downloads have far less rights than their parents who bought compact discs and the situation will only get worse for the consumer.
On 10 December 2014 at 10:43, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.pro wrote:
On 10/12/14 11:29, Max Mehl wrote:
Of course, Free Software has many links to free culture. But TPB was a site with lots of illegal content. And of course we could (and should) criticise the current copyright laws but we shouldn't connect it with this event. It would provide our opponents with a target IMO. Just my 2 cents. Best, Max Original mail of Andrés for better understanding:
If a PR can be written without direct criticism of the raid then it wouldn't be such a bad idea There are many points that can be made, e.g. the consumers of digital downloads have far less rights than their parents who bought compact discs and the situation will only get worse for the consumer.
I disagree. The Pirate Bay raid is largely orthogonal to free software/content concerns. And appearing to support it would carry only the message of support; not helping our concerns and, at worst, handing those who dislike free software/content a stick to hit us with.
Without some point of direct impact on software or content freedom, I suggest leaving this one.
(I do volunteer PR for Wikimedia, and getting any message of *any* subtlety through to the press is, in my experience, largely futile. And any commentary we could put forward would require subtlety to get through. If it can't fit in a hard-to-distort headline, it'll be a tricky one.)
- d.
On 10/12/14 14:33, David Gerard wrote:
On 10 December 2014 at 10:43, Daniel Pocock daniel@pocock.pro wrote:
On 10/12/14 11:29, Max Mehl wrote:
Of course, Free Software has many links to free culture. But TPB was a site with lots of illegal content. And of course we could (and should) criticise the current copyright laws but we shouldn't connect it with this event. It would provide our opponents with a target IMO. Just my 2 cents. Best, Max Original mail of Andrés for better understanding:
If a PR can be written without direct criticism of the raid then it wouldn't be such a bad idea There are many points that can be made, e.g. the consumers of digital downloads have far less rights than their parents who bought compact discs and the situation will only get worse for the consumer.
I disagree. The Pirate Bay raid is largely orthogonal to free software/content concerns. And appearing to support it would carry only the message of support; not helping our concerns and, at worst, handing those who dislike free software/content a stick to hit us with.
Without some point of direct impact on software or content freedom, I suggest leaving this one.
(I do volunteer PR for Wikimedia, and getting any message of *any* subtlety through to the press is, in my experience, largely futile. And any commentary we could put forward would require subtlety to get through. If it can't fit in a hard-to-distort headline, it'll be a tricky one.)
I don't think there is a prospect of FSFE gaining a headline from such a PR and hoping for such publicity would be silly.
What is more relevant is the possibility that some of the more balanced reporters may quote somebody from FSFE when putting context information at the bottom of their story or if they decide to write some feature about this for what it is: whether legal or not, TPB's beginning and end are milestones in the evolution of digital entertainment.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hi Fellows,
I think the same way as Nico and Max.
In FSFE's Holiday Giving Guide this year [1], you might have noticed a link to GNU Mediagoblin, "a free software media publishing platform that anyone can run. You can think of it as a decentralized alternative to Flickr, YouTube, SoundCloud, etc."
This way *legal* content can be shared without problems with vendors of non-free software.
Best Regards, - -- André Ockers Fellow, Free Software Foundation Europe
ao@fsfe.org GnuPG Key: F5FE3668
[1] https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/2014/ [2] http://mediagoblin.org/
Hello,
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:17:24PM +0100, André Ockers wrote:
I think the same way as Nico and Max.
Me too.
In FSFE's Holiday Giving Guide this year [1], you might have noticed a
Credit where credit is due. It's FSF's Giving Guide, not FSFE's. ;)
Greetings,
Guido
I think, as my personal opinion, that The Pirate Bay for years worked as a necessary act of civil disobedience, *and* that it has constituted a huge contribution to the accessibility of world culture - it has enabled me to see many movies that would otherwise have been very difficult for me to ever get hold of, as they're too far out on the long tail to be available on Amazon.
This, however, is about free culture and not free software, and even though the overall issues are related (=> free society), that is not FSFE's area.
I also agree with Peter Sunde that TPB has survived itself and is actually harmful as a SPOF.
And (with a tired voice) this whole discussion is also kind of moot:
Carsten
On 12/11/2014 12:51 AM, Guido Arnold wrote:
Hello,
On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:17:24PM +0100, André Ockers wrote:
I think the same way as Nico and Max.
Me too.
In FSFE's Holiday Giving Guide this year [1], you might have noticed a
Credit where credit is due. It's FSF's Giving Guide, not FSFE's. ;)
Greetings,
Guido
Discussion mailing list Discussion@fsfeurope.org https://mail.fsfeurope.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
On 12/10/2014 12:29 PM, Max Mehl wrote:
Of course, Free Software has many links to free culture. But TPB was a site with lots of illegal content. And of course we could (and should) criticise the current copyright laws but we shouldn't connect it with this event. It would provide our opponents with a target IMO.
Just a tiny but important clarification. TPB didn't host illegal content. Just the magnet files pointing to them. This is an important distinction and the basic reason why shutting down a torrent tracker is nothing less than censorship.
But I agree that it probably won't be the best move for FSFE to issue a PR for this. Strictly speaking this doesn't fall under FSFE's scope.
# Nikos Roussos comzeradd@fsfe.org [10.12.2014 @ 14:47]:
On 12/10/2014 12:29 PM, Max Mehl wrote:
Of course, Free Software has many links to free culture. But TPB was a site with lots of illegal content. And of course we could (and should) criticise the current copyright laws but we shouldn't connect it with this event. It would provide our opponents with a target IMO.
Just a tiny but important clarification. TPB didn't host illegal content. Just the magnet files pointing to them. This is an important distinction and the basic reason why shutting down a torrent tracker is nothing less than censorship.
You're right, I forgot that. Thanks for pointing this out, Nikos.
Then this would be a headline like "Don't blame the sender of the bad message if the whole system is silly", but that's more or less none of our business and IMO we're far from being distinctive experts in this mined field.
Best, Max