Hi all,
Every once in a while I run into having to answer difficult questions about whether some particular software is Free or not. I am looking for a mailing list to be able to ask/share such questions but I don't know if this is the appropiate one or I should rather try another one at gnu.org.
Thanks
On Monday 18 October 2004 12:05, Xavier Amatriain wrote:
questions about whether some particular software is Free or not.
Hi Xavier,
I am also new to this list, but I think that what you are looking for is this webpage:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
The webpage has a list of many licenses commonly used and explains whether they are Free of not and how much they are compatible with GNU GPL.
No, no... I already know about that page.
I will issue a question I have so it is clearer:
I have sometimes seen extensions to the Matlab program that are published under the GPL. That is, a researcher implements some algorithm in Matlab and publishes on his/her webpage under the GPL. My question is: is that even possible? How can a piece of software that requires of something such as Matlab, which is definitely non-Free, using a non-Free language be published under the GPL?
On dl, 2004-10-18 at 11:52, NSK wrote:
On Monday 18 October 2004 12:05, Xavier Amatriain wrote:
questions about whether some particular software is Free or not.
Hi Xavier,
I am also new to this list, but I think that what you are looking for is this webpage:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
The webpage has a list of many licenses commonly used and explains whether they are Free of not and how much they are compatible with GNU GPL.
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Xavier Amatriain wrote:
I have sometimes seen extensions to the Matlab program that are published under the GPL. That is, a researcher implements some algorithm in Matlab and publishes on his/her webpage under the GPL. My question is: is that even possible? How can a piece of software that requires of something such as Matlab, which is definitely non-Free, using a non-Free language be published under the GPL?
I believe that your question is answered, at least in part by
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#InterpreterIncompat
Regards,
James
-- "You're turning into a penguin. Stop it" http://jamesd.ukgeeks.co.uk/
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 12:10 +0200, Xavier Amatriain wrote:
I have sometimes seen extensions to the Matlab program that are published under the GPL. That is, a researcher implements some algorithm in Matlab and publishes on his/her webpage under the GPL. My question is: is that even possible? How can a piece of software that requires of something such as Matlab, which is definitely non-Free, using a non-Free language be published under the GPL?
1st question: yes
2nd question: the authors can add an explicit permission to link the GPL'ed program they wrote against some proprietary library or program.
2nd question explored further: if said library or program is something that is part of the proprietary system in question, then there's no need to add an explicit permission. This is _not_ the case of MatLab.
Regards, Rui
Hi again,
2nd question: the authors can add an explicit permission to link the GPL'ed program they wrote against some proprietary library or program.
2nd question explored further: if said library or program is something that is part of the proprietary system in question, then there's no need to add an explicit permission. This is _not_ the case of MatLab.
But how can a piece of software that does not even grant the first of the four freedoms ("The freedom to run the program, for any purpose") can be made Free? Really, I don't get it. If someone sends me a piece of Matlab code I cannot run it! What am I supposed to do? Convert it to C? Try to load it from Octave and see if I am lucky enough so the developer did not use any of the Matlab toolboxes?
On Monday 18 October 2004 13:47, Xavier Amatriain wrote:
If someone sends me a piece of Matlab code I cannot run it! What am I supposed to do?
In my opinion, we will never have truly Free software if we don't try to build Free hardware. I mean, the design of the CPUs we use is copyrighted/patented/tradesecret/whatever. If we want to run Free software, we are forced to get a non-Free CPU. But now some people started designing Free chip designs, so I hope we will soon have Free hardware in the future. See: http://www.opencores.org
The problem you describe is real and I think it's similar to the "Java trap". The java trap is that you write a GPL program for java, but java is not Free, so in the end you end up being controlled by whoever provides the java implementation. But some programmers understood the problem so they build Free java alternatives.
About MatLab, I think that the best solution is to organise a group for programmes in order to improve Octave or write a new MatLab-compatible Free package.
If you think about it, you will see that Free software was always developed this way. We didn't have any Free operating system at first but then GNU/Linux came out of the effort of thousands of programmers around the world, because people want to be Free. In the same way, if many programmers and engineers agree to work together, we can create anything Free, including mathematics software and computer hardware.
Oh, and a clarification: When I talk about Free hardware I mean the copyrightable/patentable electrical-logical design, not the actual hardware. The real hardware needs, of course, a factory in order to be build, but the design can be just drawn on a piece paper (or a CAD file) :)
About MatLab, I think that the best solution is to organise a group for programmes in order to improve Octave or write a new MatLab-compatible Free package.
I agree with you. But then, it is really hard to convince people to switch to Octave if they think that using Matlab they are still Free because they are using/publishing GPL code. The problem is that if this situation continues at the end there will be more Free than non-Free value to Matlab and then, how are we convince people to switch to Octave or any non-Free alternative?
It is like if everyone started writing MS Windows-only Free Software. Who would want to use GNU/Linux then?
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Xavier Amatriain wrote:
I agree with you. But then, it is really hard to convince people to switch to Octave if they think that using Matlab they are still Free because they are using/publishing GPL code. The problem is that if this situation continues at the end there will be more Free than non-Free value to Matlab and then, how are we convince people to switch to Octave or any non-Free alternative?
Am I correct in assuming that you mean free alternative? I think the only way to convince people is to make the information available and try to ensure that the software one writes is of good quality. People will either use it or they won't.
It is like if everyone started writing MS Windows-only Free Software. Who would want to use GNU/Linux then?
I don't think that there is really a danger of this happening. According to the GNU Coding Standards, maintainers of GNU packages are responsible for ensuring that they run on GNU systems. Porting them to non-GNU, and especially non-free, systems is not a priority. It's not, however, discouraged. Personally, I like DJGPP very much and I think it serves a very useful purpose.
I can only speak for myself, but, generally speaking, I don't like using MS products. I prefer any Unix-like system to Windows, and I suspect that many other programmers feel the same way.
Laurence Finston GNU 3DLDF maintainer http://www.gnu.org/software/3dldf/LDF.html
On 2004-10-18 11:10:02 +0100 Xavier Amatriain xamat@iua.upf.es wrote:
[...] How can a piece of software that requires of something such as Matlab, which is definitely non-Free, using a non-Free language be published under the GPL?
This looks like a variation on "If a programming language interpreter has a license that is incompatible with the GPL, can I run GPL-covered programs on it?" http://gnu.hands.com/licenses/gpl-faq.html#InterpreterIncompat (Summary: yes.)
I think octave can run some matlab programs, so maybe that will allow GPL matlab programs to be used on a free software system. http://www.octave.org/