That is on the about us page - I was referring to the homepage ("I see that the Ubuntu homepage (www.ubuntu.com/) makes no mention...").
The homepage is the first thing that visitors will see, and in many cases the only page that they will visit. I'm aware that they make mention elsewhere, but there is nothing on the first and most import page on the site.
Sam.
> It does mention Linux:
>
> at http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus
> "(...)Ubuntu is a community developed and supported project. Since its
> launch in October 2004, Ubuntu has become one of the most highly regarded
> Linux distributions with millions of users around the world.(...)"
>
>
> Leszek Szczepański
Yes, but docx is not widespread either.
And for that matter, neither is ODT, or you wouldn't write your document.
I think we understand eachother and are now mostly discusing the meaning of words.
I'm glad you wrote your document and I think it was a good idea to invite feedback.
Best regards,
Sam
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugo Roy <hugo(a)fsfe.org>
Sent: 06 April 2010 14:05
To: discussion(a)fsfeurope.org
Subject: Re: Explaining Open Standards email attachements
Le mardi 06 avril 2010 à 13:20 +0100, David Gerard a écrit :
> Indeed. However, as far as the users are concerned, they're
> interoperability.
Again, try to send a 2007 .doc document to a Mac Office - or to a
previous Office version. Try to do the same with a .doc from 2003 to a
1999 version and the other way around.
It doesn't work, it's not in Microsoft's interest to make it work
because they want everyone to upgrade to the last Office.
That's *not* interoperability.
Best,
--
Hugo Roy im: hugo(a)jabber.fsfe.org
French Coordinator http://www.fsfe.org/about/roy
Free Software Foundation Europe works to create general understanding
and support for software freedom in politics, law and society-at-large.
For more information, see http://www.fsfe.org
Hi,
the definition given at
http://documentfreedom.org/Open_Standards
is somewhat abstract. I know that the definition is still
controversial but I think the following would benefit an average user
browsing the site:
1) add a list of common standards that people use (zip, HTML,
Microsoft Word, tar, RTF, MP3, Ogg Theora).
2) for each item on the list: go through points 1-5 and discuss why
they might apply or not might not apply.
3) for each item on the list: give an overall conclusion and potential
list of alternative standards.
I do not think this list needs to be long. It just has to name
something concrete for the average to have something to think
about.
I added some entries at
http://documentfreedom.org/Talk:Open_Standards
but I was unable to complete the table since I was not quite sure
about points 4 and 5. Particularly point 4 was hard since I do not
undesrstand the organizational structure of xiph.org that manages ogg
vorbis. Point 5 was hard since I do not understand what "a complete
implementation equally available to all parties" exactly
means. Doesn't a non-free implementation fulfil point 5? Is that
intended?
Finally, the text of the Open_Standards page seems to be copied from
http://www.fsfe.org/projects/os/def.en.html
which is under "Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire
article is permitted in any medium, provided this notice is
preserved.". Is copyright assignment to FSFE required to get changes
accepted "upstream"? ;-)
Thanks for those comments Hugo - they help to explain what I mean.
Not only will the original author hav to install some other software to convert the mp3 to ogg, they will then have to tell many recipients to install vlc or firefox in order to hear it, and to pass on the same instructions to everyone they send it to.
Also additional software will need to be found and used if recipients want to listen to the audio on an mp3 player. (Users without admin access won't have the ability to do this even if they have the wit). Further as non-aware users can't often judge the charactr of remote individuals telling them to install strange new software they will either refuse (lets hope so) or otherwise we will be responsible for adapting their attitude to be willing to install whatever software some remote spammer tells them to. Corporate users may face discipline for installing, or telling customers or colleagues to install software.
If they had just sent mp3 they would have found no inconvenience except from a few political geeks who's comments (see above) are unhelpful and generally make things complicated anyway.
Whatever we feel here for strategic reasons, those who hear us on this will think we are liars because in the short term all they wil get (and most recipients) will be utter inconvenince that they don't have the background to cope with.
They will learn pavlov-style to never listen.
Hence my belief that the document discussed should be political/idealistic or a helpful guide to interoperability and document exchange, but it can't do both.
Sam
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugo Roy <hugo(a)fsfe.org>
Sent: 04 April 2010 11:28
To: Sam Liddicott <sam(a)liddicott.com>
Cc: discussion(a)fsfeurope.org
Subject: RE: Explaining Open Standards email attachements
Hello Sam,
Allow me just to answer to this point,
Le mercredi 31 mars 2010 à 21:42 +0100, Sam Liddicott a écrit :
> For example: most users cannot handle ogg for flac files. Most users
> who can't accept mp3 but can accept ogg do so out of conscious
> rejection of mp3. And so the argument for ogg is political and not
> about interoperability and therfore will seem dishonest to
> non-technical readers who will then doubt the entire argument. Imagine
> when nearly everyone they send an ogg to (after the initial difficulty
> of producing the ogg - from an mp3) needs to ask what an ogg is and
> how to play it. It will soon be apparent that mp3 should have been
> used.
I have to say that it is not true, because a lot of very common and
famous software can handle those files.
Examples: VLC & Firefox 3.5.
The first one is easy to install and very popular.
Best,
--
Hugo Roy im: hugo(a)jabber.fsfe.org
French Coordinator http://www.fsfe.org/about/roy
Free Software Foundation Europe works to create general understanding
and support for software freedom in politics, law and society-at-large.
For more information, see http://www.fsfe.org
I think the message is a great summary of the problem; but from experience I say that users who don't already have a political understanding of the issues or a thorough technical background will:
1. Not be able to understand what to do in order to comply with the message
2. Not be capable of carrying out the steps if they do understand.
The document also mixes ideas of convenience with politics, but comes across as being about convenience and interoperability.
For example: most users cannot handle ogg for flac files. Most users who can't accept mp3 but can accept ogg do so out of conscious rejection of mp3. And so the argument for ogg is political and not about interoperability and therfore will seem dishonest to non-technical readers who will then doubt the entire argument. Imagine when nearly everyone they send an ogg to (after the initial difficulty of producing the ogg - from an mp3) needs to ask what an ogg is and how to play it. It will soon be apparent that mp3 should have been used.
On the other hand I often say that I don't want to have to buy five hundred pounds of office suite and operating system in order to read their docx (or worse: ms publisher) properly; I ask for a PDF (which they are familiar with) and there is a free printer driver pdf writer for windows which I can point then to. Thus I reduce my problem and their future problems. Asking for ogg would make problems.
So I think the stance of the document needs clarifying, is it a political document or a guide to convenient communication - it can't serve both aims well.
Sam
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugo Roy <hugo(a)fsfe.org>
Sent: 31 March 2010 18:18
To: discussion(a)fsfeurope.org
Subject: Re: Explaining Open Standards email attachements
Hello,
A new version is available at:
http://hugoroy.eu/open-standards-att.php
Send me attachments I can read, use open standards!
There are many ways to share documents, files and data over the
Internet. Among them, emails are often used because people can
communicate from one mail server1 to another without any difficulty. Why
does it work so simply? Because emails are designed to use a set of open
standards2, based on the Internet protocols.
However, sometimes people send attachments along with their emails, and
it happens frequently that the attachments cannot be read by the
recipients. For example, many attached files are documents produced by
word processors and it can be impossible to read them correctly if you
do not have the same word processor. Many proprietary word processors
use proprietary file formats3. In 2002, a campaign was started to put an
end to Word attachments. But the same is true for all kinds of documents
and files: texts, spreadsheets, slides, videos, etc.
When you attach a file to an email, please make sure that your
correspondent will be able to read your files correctly. It is a basic
principle of courtesy. And there is an easy way to make sure it is
possible: use open standards. If you do so, your correspondent will have
the possibility to choose which program he or she wants. Open standards
guarantee sustainability and interoperability for your data, making sure
you will be able to access them in the future, even with another
software, on another platform or operating system.
Moreover, by promoting open standards you will help everyone: sharing
documents can be as easy as sending and receiving emails! If you receive
an email using proprietary file formats, don't hesitate to share this
page and explain why it is important to use Open Standards.
Campaigns for Open Standards
* Document Freedom Day
* Play Ogg and rOgg On!
On Document Freedom Day, the FSF started a campaign to call on computer
users to start politely rejecting proprietary attachments.
Organisations and Software supporting Open Standards
* OpenOffice.org
* VideoLan, the project making VLC
* Free Software Foundation Europe support Open Standards
1. ^ Mail servers transfer emails from one computer to another. For
more information, you can check Wikipedia
2. ^ Open Standards are protocols and file formats that can be freely
used and implemented, and are designed in an open process. For more
information, see the Open Standards definition.
3. ^ Microsoft Office by default save your files in the ".doc" format
or the ".docx" format. If you share these documents with people using
different word processors, it will not work properly. Good alternatives
for Microsoft Word are documents in .RTF or in .ODT (use the "Save As"
feature)
--
Hugo Roy im: hugo(a)jabber.fsfe.org
French Coordinator http://www.fsfe.org/about/roy
Free Software Foundation Europe works to create general understanding
and support for software freedom in politics, law and society-at-large.
For more information, see www.fsfe.org
Hello,
I would like to publish that for Document Freedom day and I would like
your feedback before as well as your propositions to make it a better
text.
http://hugoroy.eu/open-standards-att.php
= Send me attachments I can read, use open standards! =
There are many ways to share documents, files and data over the
Internet. Among them, emails are often used to do so, because whoever
has an email address can send and receive emails freely. People from one
mail server[1] to another can communicate without any difficulty. Why is
it working so simply? Because emails are designed to use a set of open
standards[2], based on the Internet protocols.
However sometimes, people send attachments along with their emails, and
it happens frequently that the attachments cannot be read by your
correspondent. For example, many attached files are documents produced
by word processors and they can be impossible to read correctly if you
don't have the same word processor.
This is often the case when using proprietary word processors. These
programs don't use open standards, but they use proprietary file
formats[3] instead. In 2002, a campaign was started to put an end to
Word attachments. However, this is also true for all kinds of documents
and files: texts, spreadsheets, slides, videos, etc.
When you attach a file to an email, please make sure that your
correspondent will be able to read your files correctly. It is a basic
principle of courtesy. There is an easy way to make sure it is possible:
use open standards. If you do so, your correspondent will have the
possibility to choose which program he or she wants.
Moreover, by promoting open standards you will help everyone: sharing
documents can be as easy as sending and receiving emails! If you receive
an email using proprietary file formats, don't hesitate to share this
page.
Campaigns for Open Standards
* Document Freedom Day
* Play Ogg and rOgg On!
Organisations and Software supporting Open Standards
* OpenOffice.org
* VideoLan, the project making VLC
* Free Software Foundation Europe support Open Standards
Footnotes:
1. ^ Mail servers transfer emails from one computer to another. For
more information, you can read the Wikipedia
2. ^ Open Standards are protocols and file formats that can be freely
used and implemented, and are designed in an open process. For more
information, see the Open Standards definition.
3. ^ Microsoft Office by default save your files in the ".doc" format
or the ".docx" format. If you share these documents with people using
different word processors, it will not be working properly. Good
alternatives for Microsoft Word are documents in .RTF or in .ODT (use
the "Save As" feature)
--
Hugo Roy im: hugo(a)jabber.fsfe.org
French Coordinator http://www.fsfe.org/about/roy
Free Software Foundation Europe works to create general understanding
and support for software freedom in politics, law and society-at-large.
For more information, see www.fsfe.org
31st March 2010
* Presidency of the Greek Republic
* Greek Parliament
* Prime Minister's Office
* Ministry of Transports and Communications
* Ministry of Education, Life Long Learning and Religious Affairs
* Members of Parliament and candidates of all parties
* Computer Scientists Union of Greece
* Technical Chamber of Greece
* Free Software / Open Source Software Society
Cc:
* General Secretaries of Districts
* Prefects
* Mayors
* Universities and Technical Schools Computer Science Departments
Today, on the occasion of the international Document Freedom Day, the
Association of Greek Users and Friends of Free Software / Open Source
Software and Free Software Foundation Europe take the occasion to
request from the Greek Government the immediate, comprehensive and
mandatory adoption of the OpenDocument Format (ODF) and other Open
Standards for the Greek public sector.
[0] http://documentfreedom.org
[1] http://fsfe.org/projects/os/def.en.html
Numerous successful migrations of public bodies across Europe show
that Open Standards clearly are a superior strategic choice for
public bodies. If any technical or organizational obstacles to the
introduction of Free Software and Open Standards exist, they can be
overcome with political will, proper planning and skilled execution.
Open Standards allow the public sector to develop its own IT strategy
independently of any particular vendor. Information stored in open
document formats such as ODF will remain accessible far into the
future, when current proprietary vendors will long have disappeared.
Crucially in today's dire economic situation, Open Standards and Free
Software can bring huge cost savings to the Greek public sector. No
license fees need to be paid, and IT solutions can be fully tailored
to the needs of each organization. Public bodies will no longer
depend on any particular software vendor, but will instead be able to
choose their IT solutions freely in a competitive market.
We believe that Greece would do well to follow the lead provided by
the European Commission. The European Interoperability Framework [2]
highlights the importance of Open Standards for the public sector.
Many European countries such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and
Norway have made Open Standards mandatory for
their public sectors.
[2] http://ec.europa.eu/idabc/en/document/3473/5585#finalEIF
The former European Commissioner for Competition, Neelie Kroes, remarked on June
10, 2008 [3] that
"As purchasers, we need to be smart when we buy technology. We need to
be aware of the long term costs of lock-in: you are often locked-in
to subsequent generations of that
technology. There can also be spill-over effects where you get locked
in to other products and services provided by that vendor. That is
just bad purchasing."
She added
"But there is more to this than ensuring our commercial decisions are
taken in full knowledge of their long term effects. There is a
democratic issue as well.
When open alternatives are available, no citizen or company should be
forced or encouraged to use a particular company's technology to
access government information. No citizen or company should be forced
or encouraged to choose a closed technology over an open one, through
a government having made that choice first.
These democratic principles are important. And an argument is
particularly compelling when it is supported both by democratic
principles and by sound economics. I know a smart business decision
when I see one - choosing open standards is a very smart business
decision indeed."
[3] http://repository.openforumeurope.org/media-centre/press-releases/ofe/speec…
In the public interest, the Association of Greek Users and Friends of
Free Software / Open Source Software and Free Software Foundation
Europe ask the Greek public sector to make a firm commitment to ODF
and other Open Standards.
Ioakim Tellidis
President
Association of Greek Users and Friends of Free Software / Open Source
Software (GREEK.L.U.G.)
http://www.greeklug.gr
Karsten Gerloff
President,
Free Software Foundation Europe
http://fsfe.org
= = = = = = =
We are on advocacy phase now, soon we wait for the first reactions and feedback.
Hello,
I'm trying to put together links to press and blogs about DFD.
Please contribute on the wiki
https://wiki.fsfe.org/Press/DFD2010
Thank you!
--
Hugo Roy im: hugo(a)jabber.fsfe.org
French Coordinator http://www.fsfe.org/about/roy
Free Software Foundation Europe works to create general understanding
and support for software freedom in politics, law and society-at-large.
For more information, see www.fsfe.org
Hi all,
I wish you all a happy Document Freedom Day! Here a short blog entry
with pictures how my day looked like: http://blogs.fsfe.org/mk/?p=489.
Fellows, you rOGGed!!
Matthias
PS: The tart was good ;)
--
German Coordinator, Fellowship Coordinator
Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) [] (http://fsfe.org)
Join the Fellowship of FSFE! [][][] (http://fsfe.org/join)
Your donation powers our work! || (http://fsfe.org/donate)
Hi,
The text is now on https://wiki.fsfe.org/ConvinceYourFriends/Attachments
Feel free to edit it.
Best,
Hugo
Sorry Michael! I forgot the footnotes, thanks!
Le mercredi 31 mars 2010 19:44:11, Michael Kennedy a écrit :
> > 3. ^ Microsoft Office by default save your files in the ".doc"
> > format
>
> Office -> Word
>
> save -> saves
>
> > or the ".docx" format. If you share these documents with people
> > using different word processors, it will not work properly. Good
> > alternatives
>
> it will -> they may
>
> > for Microsoft Word are documents in .RTF or in .ODT (use the "Save
> > As" feature)
>
> - Mike
>
--
Hugo Roy im: hugo(a)jabber.fsfe.org
French Coordinator http://www.fsfe.org/about/roy
Free Software Foundation Europe works to create general understanding
and support for software freedom in politics, law and society-at-large.
For more information, see www.fsfe.org