>From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Sat Mar 16 14:27:21 2002
>> >Besides pdf isn't exactly a free standart, is it?
>>=20
>> I would rather like to have a free standard but at least PDF works nearly
>> everywhere.
>What's non-free about the PDF?
You are trying to participate a discussion about freedom and don't know
what's not free with PDF?
YOu are kiddng!
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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>From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Sat Mar 16 17:22:42 2002
>On Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 04:44:41PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> >From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Sat Mar 16 15:41:29 2002
>> >Nice. Do you also fix the bugs in solaris if you find them?
>>=20
>> There are much much less bug then in Linux. If I find a bug, I report it.
>And if they don't fix your reported bug? Or if it takes a month and
>you want to get something done which triggers that bug?
Well if it ets fixed in months on Solaris this is much much faster than
on Linux or even other GNU tools.
Many of the important Linux bugs that create headakes for me are not fixed
within years.
GNU make bugs are not fixed in years too. GNU make is still handling
'include' statements wrong although I posted a bug report more than
3 years ago :-(
>> >Nobody force you. You've the freedom to do what you want, you don't
>> >*have to port*. If those people don't do the job well and those people
>> >want to run your software, they could a) fix there own things b)
>> >port your software so you only have to apply the patch.
>>=20
>> People like you try to force me.=20
>I would write a patch, send it to you and try to convince to include
>it. I would not force you with a gun to apply the patch.
You tell me that it is bad habbit to use software that is not really free
and like to force me this way to spend more time to develop e.g. cdrecord.
Make Linux POSIX compliant enough and give me a useable debugger and
it may make sense to develop on Linux. As long as GDB only helps me with
things that don't need a debugger and does not support basic adb
features it is useless.
Ever tried to find the reason for a core dump that is not easily pepeatable
and the program has not been compiled with -g?
Things that take seconds with adb cannot be done with gdb at all :-(
>Convincing !=3D forcing.
If you have arguments, you can convince me....
>I shouldn't? Does your program build and function correctly if
>PATH_MAX isn't defined? To give you an example: if the current working
>directory is bigger than 1024 the last part will be removed in
>mkisofs.
If you found a bug, comment it and send a usable and repeatable bug report.
>> also:
>> Did you already switch to star because GNUtar is nonstandard?
>I don't like the star interface and like the GNU tar one. I have never
>problems with the nonstandard format of GNU tar. Why should I switch
>to star if I don't like the program and don't have any problem with
>GNU tar?
Tht GNUtar command line systax is not POSIX compliant _and_ it is much
worse than the one from star. Nobody forces you to stay with the
worse program but it seems that you don't like to read manual pages
and even try why star is easier to use than GNU tar.
I am usng star on a dayly base since 1984 (long before GNUtar exists).
If GNUtar would implement a better idea, I would copy it but there
is no reason to do so.
>> You are jumping with your mind frequently in order to express your wishes.
>> If you have a standpoint, you should be consequent.
>I am consequent. I like compatibility, but it's not the most important
>thing.
If compatibility is less important for you then you don't take care
of portability. Most GNU tools have initially been developed on SunOS
and have been used because they have been better than the tools
on SunOS. Now the maintainers in many cases dod loose contact to reality
because they are working on Linux only. For an evolving world you need
competition.....
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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>From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Sat Mar 16 13:43:27 2002
>> Any OS that nobody likes to run cdrecord on could be considered dead these
>> days....
>You're a funny dude. And arrogant one, thinking that cdrecord is such
>an important program. I can name dozens of programs which are far more
>important than cdrecord and most of them already run on GNU/Hurd. I
>would recommend people who want to port programs to GNU/Hurd to port
>some of the more important and useful programs instead of porting
>cdrecord.
You are the arrogant person!
I am only telling you facts. So far not a single person did show
interest for a HURD port of cdrecord and cdrecord is one of the free
programs wit the highest interest. Name a non-trivial program that has
been ported because there was a demand for it.
>I know OSes with more potential than 80% of the OSes cdrecord is
>ported to. Also cdrecord runs on some really dead OSes (NT-3.5, BEos).=20
There are more then zero people with interest for BeOS, there are zero people
with interest for cdrecord on HURD. It there were people doing everydays
work on HURD, then there would be interest for cdrecord on HURD. This is
a simple statement so even you should understand it.
Sorry, but I don't like to continue a discussion this way if it is biased
by your way of only counting ideas if they are compatible with your mind.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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>From marcus(a)gnu.org Sat Mar 16 18:05:06 2002
>On Sat, Mar 16, 2002 at 05:00:59PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> There are more then zero people with interest for BeOS, there are zero people
>> with interest for cdrecord on HURD.
>Joerg, please port cdrecord to the Hurd. And if that doesn't count I
>can ask the ~800 people on debian-hurd if anybody of them would like to
>see cdrecord ported to the Hurd, too, to send you a mail about it.
>Would that be of any help?
So does HURD have a SCSI generic transport interface?
>PS: I have ported a couple of hundred programs to the Hurd because there
>was a demand for it. Hurd people don't walk around and ask people to do
>their work. Hurd people do the port themself and submit proper
>patches. cdrecord is difficult to port because we lack the interfaces
>you need to access the hardware, and probably we lack the drivers, too.
>So from the point of view of cdrecord, the Hurd is probably pretty
>useless, but it is definitely far from dead.
cdrecord is easier to port than most other software because it uses
a decent portability system.
To start you first should compile 'smake' because GNUmake does not
implement automake features and there is no OS definition files
for HURD.
If there is decent POSOX compatibility, then smake should be able to
compile cdrecord on HURD. If it does not compile, send a list of problems
that can be discussed. Once it compiles we need to create a SCSI transport
adaption layer.
P.S. I usually don't install an OS and do it myself because this takes
more time and people who know the OS should be faster in finding
solutions for portability problems.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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>From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Sat Mar 16 15:41:29 2002
>> >GNU/Linux isn't POSIX compliant. Do you prefer a proprietary unix
>> >which is POSIX compatible instead of GNU/Linux?
>>=20
>> Yes, of course! It saves me a lot of time doing development on Solaris
>> instead of Linux.
>Nice. Do you also fix the bugs in solaris if you find them?
There are much much less bug then in Linux. If I find a bug, I report it.
>> You are kidding! If there is no standard compliance, there is no freedom!
>> I don't like to be forced to port software just because some people
>> don't do their job well enough. If this is what you understand by freedom
>> you don't understand what freedom means. Freedom is not just freedom in
>> a nutshell.
>Nobody force you. You've the freedom to do what you want, you don't
>*have to port*. If those people don't do the job well and those people
>want to run your software, they could a) fix there own things b)
>port your software so you only have to apply the patch.
People like you try to force me. You want to force me to use bad free
software although there is much better non-open software free of charge.
>I'm not saying that standard compliance is bad, given that the
>standard isn't fucked up. When I'm developping I'm taking care I'm
>POSIX compliant.
>But yes, there are a lot of people who don't do their job well enough
>and don't look if they are compliant. Just like you for example,
>having a quick look at the cdrecord code it uses PATH_MAX. This isn't
>POSIX compatible, PATH_MAX is marked optional. Systems don't need to
If you don't understand portability or if you only browse the source
for a second, you should not comment on it!.
also:
Did you already switch to star because GNUtar is nonstandard?
You are jumping with your mind frequently in order to express your wishes.
If you have a standpoint, you should be consequent.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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schilling(a)fokus.gmd.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix
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>From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Sat Mar 16 14:21:35 2002
Good morning, where did you sleep the last days?
It is not a good idea to warm up an already closed discussion!
>On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 05:06:14PM +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote:
>> When I am doing my work, I choose the best combination of programs -
>> while I prefer free software if available _and_ if the free software
>> is standard compliant.
>GNU/Linux isn't POSIX compliant. Do you prefer a proprietary unix
>which is POSIX compatible instead of GNU/Linux?
Yes, of course! It saves me a lot of time doing development on Solaris
instead of Linux.
>> If people always use free software even if it is non-standard, then
>> we end up in a wold similar to the M$ world and the only advantage
>> is that we don't have to pay.
>And we would have the freedom to do what we want!!!
You are kidding! If there is no standard compliance, there is no freedom!
I don't like to be forced to port software just because some people
don't do their job well enough. If this is what you understand by freedom
you don't understand what freedom means. Freedom is not just freedom in
a nutshell.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js(a)cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
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URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix
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>From: joack(a)gmx.net
>this
>> /*--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------*/
>> 4.The Open Group reserves the right to charge for HTML/PDF
>> versions of
>> its publications in the future.
>> /*--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------*/
>is exactly the passage Markj has been refering to for a week now.
>I.e. behält sich das Recht vor in Zukunft für seine Publikationen
>Geld zu verlangen.
>Not to charge for future publication (für zukünftige ...) and while this
>may not be the most probable outcome, they may thus charge for
>stuff you already have. AND they may charge ANY sum.
>This would not be legal here in our country, but ...
It oboiusly a miss interpretation!
You are not allowed to save a copy of the HTML version.
So you cannot "have" the standard at home.
I believe it would be illegal in any country to charge for a publication
that you only have been able to view.
It is obvious that Mark simply does not like to view the standard :-(
.. If you participated the standard creation, you would have a legal
PDF and a TEXT version. This version has line numbers for the editors
and this looks a bit ugly for this reason :-)
>Besides pdf isn't exactly a free standart, is it?
I would rather like to have a free standard but at least PDF works nearly
everywhere.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js(a)cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
schilling(a)fokus.gmd.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
URL: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix
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>From jeroen(a)dekkers.cx Fri Mar 8 19:30:24 2002
>Having to install non-free software to get the latest piece of your
>software is limiting you if you want to use that software. But at that
>time my default OS will probably be GNU/Hurd.
It seems that here are even people who refuse to read the POSIX
standard because it may become non-free in the future.
When I am doing my work, I choose the best combination of programs -
while I prefer free software if available _and_ if the free software
is standard compliant.
If people always use free software even if it is non-standard, then
we end up in a wold similar to the M$ world and the only advantage
is that we don't have to pay.
A real important issue of freedom is that yopu are not limited by
proprietaty interfaces and file formats and may choose between available
implementations.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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>From: Jeroen Dekkers <jeroen(a)dekkers.cx>
>I don't see why I should even care about Linux and especially Linus at
>all. Personally, I just help finishing the GNU system instead of
>caring about the GNU/Linux variant. I don't see why people supporting
>free software want to get associated with some bunch of people
If so many people who are talking about free software would work on Hurd,
it would be a usable OS for years.
Jörg
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
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I've been using a logo on TINY Linux web site. Of course I'm not making money with it, and it is even published outside of France (but they say "around the world")
Should I pay attention to this letter ?
If so, what should I do, to your opinion ?
--
Odile Bénassy http://obenassy.free.fr/
Network application for primary schools :
http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/bdtheme/