Discussion December 2000

discussion@lists.fsfe.org

56 participants
49 discussions

Quick status update before christmas!
by Georg C. F. Greve 21 Dec '00

21 Dec '00

Hi Everyone! Okay, I wanted to give you a quick update on the current situation of the FSF Europe. First of all I'm sorry that we aren't more active on the list, but believe us, we are reading everything you guys say and it definitely does take a part in our considerations. In our perception of things it is quite important to think before we act in order to chose the best possible way. Your considerations on the FSF Europe in the discussion list are very important for us in this respect and we deem them most helpful. Frederic Couchet <fcouchet(a)april.org>, Jonas Oberg<jonas(a)gnu.org> and Alessandro Rubini<rubini(a)gnu.org> have joined the FSF Europe core team in the discussion of the structure we will have. So far we are pretty sure about the fact that there will be one central hub organization (located in Germany with charitable status) that will provide office capacity, computer power, merchandising and all the things that can easily be centralized to minimize waste of resources. Attached to this central organization will be local chapters in each of the other European countries. This FSF Europe will serve as the hard core/backbone of the European Free Software movement. A lot of its work will be political and communication between the countries. As to how the organization will be controlled we are facing two problems: first of all the FSF Europe will need to be rock-solid in its philosophical standing and that means every member bears a huge responsibility. But of course we are aware that all of you would like to become part of it and we certainly don't mean to suggest that you aren't firm enough in your Free Software philosophy. However: we have to find a _general_ solution that has equal rules for everyone - even huge hordes of "Linux-enthusiasts" from the bandwagon. This in effect means that we cannot afford to become a completely open organization - just like the original FSF. New members of this core organization will only become appointed after discussing this with the existing members and probably in consultation with RMS and the original FSF. But we would still like to give you more ways of directly interacting and interfacing with us. So our current plans go into the direction that attached to this FSF Europe skeleton will be the muscles and various other tissues in form of associated local organizations that you all can become part of. That way you can become an "associate" of the FSF Europe, at least. In truth these organizations will do a lot of the work, they will organize booths at conventions (with the backing by the FSFE office), user-group meetings, courses and the like. In countries where membership organizations exist (like April in France) that uphold the spirit of Free Software we will probably "make" those the associated organizations - and there is not necessarily a limit to the amount of local organizations that may become associated. In countries where such organizations do not exist or where enough people feel that another such organization should be created, we will help create it. Okay, that is the general structure we have in mind right now. A lot of this isn't fully settled yet and we are working on some kind of "structure document" that will be posted once we feel it is ready to be seen without raising to many misunderstandings. Please keep in mind that these are "thoughts under construction." Oh - and then there are two news that might be of interest. One is good, one bad. First the sad news: the German Free Software based company ID-PRO won't make it despite an overfulfilled business plan. Break even would have been next year but the venture capital market is pretty catastrophic right now, it seems, so they didn't manage to raise the necessary money to bridge that gap. This is sad news in two aspects: first of all it will look bad and German news services have already treated it as a "crisis on the Linux market" whereas it really has nothing to do with the business concept but is merely a reflection of a crisis on the capital market. If you are politically active be prepared that people will try to get you with this one - so I thought you should know what was going on there. And furthermore it is pretty sad because they have been supporting me over the past couple of months very actively by employing me for development on GNU AWACS and giving me total freedom and support in terms of working for the GNU Project. Without their help I probably would not have had the time to work on the FSF Europe and GNU Business Network concepts as much as I did. Thanks a lot, guys. Unfortunately this also means that I will have to find some new source of income... I'll be checking out my options in the next weeks. My work for the FSF Europe will continue regardless. But we also have very good news: Mandrakesoft wants to donate EUR 2.500 to the FSF Europe. Apparently they had a challenge set up where the winning team could select a project that should be supported and the result was in favor of the Free Software Foundation Europe. Thank you so much! This money comes at the right time, too, as we will have some legal consultation coming up (things need to be waterproof - so there is no way around this) that this money will be used for. Alright, that's it from our side, we all hope you'll have nice holidays and a good new year! On behalf of the FSF Europe team, Georg Greve -- Georg C. F. Greve <greve(a)gnu.org> Free Software Foundation Europe (http://www.fsfeurope.org) Brave GNU World (http://brave-gnu-world.org)

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Re: Women : was: Re:
by josX 21 Dec '00

21 Dec '00

On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, josX kindly wrote: > BTW, I like the idea of using a women, what else do men like to look > at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now that does seem sexistic .... ;-) --Georg Oops... hope they won't teach "The Great Early Days Of FSF-Europe, chapter 1. 'email archives 2000'" in a hundred year. cya (got to go, keep up the you know what to keep up...) oh no, not again! (wont do it again, honest:)

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News from France: new research group about Free Software and business
by David Mentre 17 Dec '00

17 Dec '00

Hi all, This news is not directly linked to FSF-Europe but is of interest for people who use and promote free software in Europe. Let me know if I'm wrong. I would like to inform you that a French Reseach Group has been formed on the topic of "New economy of Software". This research group is _especially focused on Free Software_ and how firms can live and make money with free software. This group is composed of academics (in law, economics and computer science) and people from industry. The aim of this group is to try to understand the evolution of software industry and to produce documents about important factors to succeed with Free Software products. This is a 2 years long project. The first kick-off meeting was held last Thursday and Friday[1]. Some discussions were started on industry needs about software. Four firms presented how they organized their business with free software: - MandrakeSoft (they make a Linux distribution) - Alcôve (they sell services on free software products like Linux, OpenBSD, Apache, ...) - ACT-Europe (they sell Gnat, the Gnu Ada Compiler) - OpenCascade (they sell a computer-assisted software to design 3D objects, this software uses a LGPL-like license) This research group is especially focus on a French point of view on free software, but I think those discussions will be valid in other countries. I participate in that group (merely as an observer). If you are interested and/or want more info, just tell me. I'll try to give more info on this forum when available. Best regards, david [1] (French) http://parmentille.enst-bretagne.fr/~njullien/ -- David.Mentre(a)inria.fr -- http://www.irisa.fr/prive/dmentre/ Opinions expressed here are only mine.

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Hello all
by Frederico S. Mu�oz 10 Dec '00

10 Dec '00

Hello all. I've just subscribed after first visiting fsf-europe's page, and since it is an idea and a project that I view as very interesting and important in Europe today I just tought I should make myself available to help in whatever I can. I'm currently involved in some other free-software projects (I'm in the process of being a Debian Developer, I translate for the GNU Translation Project and also do small things in the GNU/Hurd, although I have been so bloody busy lately that ?m a bit behind my promissed deadline on some things) and I have been a user of GNU/Linux for quite some years now, and I give credit and homage for the long hours of pure joy that using a free os has gave me to the FSF; the GNU Manifesto was prolly the single text that most influenced my choice of OS and tools, and I am a big believer in the FSF goals. Having said that, and bearing in mind I'm portuguese, living in Lisbon, if there is anything that I can do to help don't hesitate to tell me; I work at Cap Gemini - Ersnt&Young in the E-business department (web related), but I prolly could begin to translate the FSF Europe Homepage if you think it would be a good thing... That's all, best regards to all and in particular the ones that made this project possible, yours, fsm -- Frederico S. Muñoz GNU http://www.gnu.org fsmunoz(a)sdf.lonestar.org Debian http://www.debian.org http://sdf.lonestar.org - SDF Public Access Unix Systems

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[fwd] Re: [Freesw] Information about implementation of IST programme support to free / open source software has been updated (from: Bernard.Lang@inria.fr)
by Werner Koch 08 Dec '00

08 Dec '00

Hi, sorry for forwarding this, but I am not sure how many of you are on the freesw list. The first remark seems to be quite interesting. Werner ----- Forwarded message from Bernard Lang <Bernard.Lang(a)inria.fr> ----- Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:50:10 +0100 From: Bernard Lang <Bernard.Lang(a)inria.fr> To: freesw(a)conecta.it Subject: Re: [Freesw] Information about implementation of IST programme support to free / open source software has been updated On Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 05:40:52PM +0100, Bud P. Bruegger wrote: > At 01:19 PM 04-12-00 +0100, Bernard Lang wrote: > > >Interesting > > > > it is a transitivity issue, independent of the goodwill of new > >programmers, as long as they reuse old code. > > > > this actually relates to the fact that ALL licences want to impose > >their view, in a very exclusive way. > > I don't understand it this way. In my understanding the GPL is different > here from other licenses, as it mandates the combined work (that has to be > distributed under the GPL as anyone knows...) to not include any additional > licensing restrictions as compared to the GPL. Since advertisement clauses > (and I believe credit files that need to be redistributed) are not part of > the GPL, they are considered additional restrictions. My mistake ... Well ... 2 remarks from info that came up recently - I learned that a licence like the BSD licence may be invalid in France, possibly in other countries. The reason is that it renounces rights without any commitment from those who receive it, no compensation of any sort to the author. Apparently this has no legal value in France because it is unilateral. Nothing in the law says that one can add to the public domain of his own free will. On the other hand, the GPL (other licences possibly), because they impose serous constraints, which can result in a return advantage for the author (he benefits from improvements ... I may not have the legal details exactly right) is OK. - another issue is that some people are suggesting to make free code immune to patent infringement suits. However their suggestion is to allow this only for GPL like licences (not LGPL for example) to garantee that it is used only in free software. They may have othe thing in mind ... I did not get all details. This is given without personnal opinion on the matter (yet) as a piece of information. and thanks to Bud P. Bruegger for the detailed reply Bernard -- Non aux Brevets Logiciels - No to Software Patents SIGNEZ http://petition.eurolinux.org/ SIGN Bernard.Lang(a)inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 1 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 1 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX _______________________________________________ Freesw mailing list Freesw(a)conecta.it http://mail.conecta.it/mailman/listinfo/freesw ----- End forwarded message -----

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"Free World" Software not Free Software
by Bernhard Reiter 08 Dec '00

08 Dec '00

Just found out that another license has popped up. (I found it, it might have been around longer.) As it has some point worth discussion in it, here my take on it: It claims to be a Free Software License, but in my eyes it is not free software. Eric Raymond rejected it as not being open source and as reported in the webpage. It is told that RMS rejected it for a different reason. But first the facts: http://www.freeworldlicence.org/ Welcome To The Free World! The Free World Licence is a free software licence that is functionally similar to the GNU General Public Licence (GNU GPL), but allows use only on free operating systems (platforms) such as GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and the GNU HURD (the "Free Software World"). Software released under The Free World Licence cannot be used (under the licence) on proprietary platforms such as Windows NT and Solaris. http://www.freeworldlicence.org/denounced.shtml Denounced By Richard Stallman! The Free World Licence has been denounced by Richard Stallman! Or, at least, he emailed me on 21 October 1999, stating he would denounce it if it employed a click/shrink-wrap contract form (which it does). So I think it's appropriate for me to display this "Denounced by Richard Stallman" logo (which I specially created for this web). It is pretty tasteless in my view to use the humoristic st. ignutius picture on this serious matter here. (RMS did the picture this with humor and irony.) The denouncement has nothing to do with the free-platform restriction, about which RMS (late 1999) seems at best enthusiastic and at worst, ambivalent. Personally I would reject it on base of the free-platform restriction. Why: Because it does not help in any way to preserve the freedom of the software, this is what a free software license should be mainly for. Actually it does not even meet the relaxed standards of the open source initiative. Secondly it is not an attempt to foster free software systems. We need to replace proprietory software were we can to gain more freedom. The use of e.g. emacs on a proprietory system (e.g. Mac OS X) truely brings more freedom for users forced on the operating system for other reasons and still honor freedom. (This includes a lot of hackers in everyday job with proprietary software companies.) They would be punished. Actually this attempt would be just an excuse for protecting proprietory business revenues. The webpage can be understood in this way, too: The purpose of The Free World Licence is to provide a means for commercial software vendors to contribute their software to the free software community and experiment with free software business models without threatening the proprietary-platform sales that survival. Summary: I cannot recommend anybody to use this license to protect software to be ment free. Bernhard -- Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net) The FreeGIS Project (freegis.org) Association for a Free Informational Infrastructure (ffii.org) FSF Europe (www.fsfeurope.org)

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Information about the Free Software Foundation Europe
by Georg C. F. Greve 07 Dec '00

07 Dec '00

Information about the Free Software Foundation Europe ----------------------------------------------------- First of all we would like to thank everyone for their huge interest and support. It has definitely surpassed our wildest expectations and we very much appreciate it. As we are currently seeing more mail than we can reasonably reply to without giving up everything else, we will try to answer some of the more frequently asked questions in this posting. Current plans of the FSF Europe: We are currently having a lawyer evaluate the different legal frameworks that exist in Germany to find out which one will suit the FSF Europe best. Afterwards it is planned to have this lawyer set up the legal documents so we can proceed with the official founding of the FSF Europe. Once that is done, we will seek legal consultation in other countries as to whether a law for charitable organizations exists, and what it implies for the local organizations. This will be done in close contact with people in those countries who will be founding the local organizations. As to which countries will be approached first we cannot say right now. About local organizations: Our plans are to work together with local organizations like the FFII, AFUL or APRIL. They are doing important work, and we are not planning to replace them. Bernhard Reiter is member of the new FFII board and we are in contact with people from APRIL and AFUL. Our declared goal is to strengthen and unite. About local representatives: We are currently looking for people in other countries to become part of the FSF Europe and we have been contacted by a lot of people so far. The FSF in the U.S. itself is not a "membership organization." It is rather an organization of selected individuals that have proven themselves to possess a deep understanding of the Free Software philosophy and a firm belief in the long-term goals of Free Software. It can easily be understood that being a member of such an organization requires a relatively high level of commitment. As we seek to become the acknowledged sister organization of the FSF, we feel that we have to maintain the same level of commitment and philosophical awareness of the FSF itself. For this reason we would like to get to know everyone who is interested in becoming part of the FSF Europe. Of course we have read or heard from a lot of the active members of the Free Software community before, but this is no substitute for getting to know you from personal email and discussions. We therefore ask you to be a little patient - talk to us, discuss things with us, let us know your personal take on things so we know who we are truly dealing with. At the same time this will give you a chance to really get to know us and our views and standpoints. Hopefully this will allow us to build the mutual trust that is neccessary for such a big project. If this seems overly cautious to you, please keep in mind that we seek to create an organization that will at least last as long as the FSF has so far (which is about 16 years). This requires doing things _right_ and we feel that anything less would not do it justice. But this does not mean that you have to become a member in order to help the FSF Europe. In fact there will be a lot of tasks we will need help with (see below). On financial donations: We very much appreciate your offers and would be very pleased to accept them once the financial part of the FSF Europe gets started. Acquiring legal consultation in Germany and all the other countries will cost some money as will doing actual _work_ on behalf of Free Software. As a result it is quite likely that we will be asking for donations in the not too distant future. On other help: We are extremely pleased with all the spontaneous offers of help we have been receiving. In general, discussing things with us, giving us your views and perceptions on things, as well as spreading the word and backing us, is a lot of help already. Although the amount of specific tasks that we can be helped with is rather small, that number will surely increase as we will need everything from web masters and admins to people helping with booths at shows. If you have any specific ideas as to how you might help us now, we would be very glad to hear them. Just because we haven't thought of it, doesn't mean that we won't consider it a good idea. Okay, this should hopefully answer a lot of the questions. We will work our way through the email we receive(d); and even if we don't reply immediately, please be assured that everything you write will be read and considered. Judging by the support all of you have given us so far, it seems quite likely that together we can build a stronghold for Free Software in Europe. On behalf of the FSF Europe team, Georg C. F. Greve <greve(a)gnu.org> Hamburg, $Date: 2001/04/28 21:59:02 $ -- Georg C. F. Greve <greve(a)gnu.org> the monthly GNU forum in English, German, French, Spanish and Japanese. Check it out at http://brave-gnu-world.org/

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Food for thought: C and the world-wide crowd
by Bernhard Reiter 07 Dec '00

07 Dec '00

Hello everybody, (I guess I should not, but I also couldn't resist,) to post the lines from an interview of Dennis M. Ritchie: | On the other hand, the "open evolution" idea has its own drawbacks, | whether in official standards bodies or more informally, say over the | Web or mailing lists. When I read commentary about suggestions for where | C should go, I often think back and give thanks that it wasn't developed | under the advice of a worldwide crowd. C is peculiar in a lot of ways, | but it, like many other successful things, has a certain unity of | approach that stems from development in a small group. To tell the | truth, I don't know how Linus and his merry band manage so well -- I | couldn't have stood it with C. http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-12/lw-12-ritchie.html In the article they talk about the C99 standard and Mr. Ritchie wished the commitee would have resited even more to a lot of suggestions. Somehow the FSF's posistion has similarities: We will have to resist a lot... and pick the best. Bernhard -- Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net) The FreeGIS Project (freegis.org) Association for a Free Informational Infrastructure (ffii.org) FSF Europe (www.fsfeurope.org)

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Re: Politics and freedom (was: Information [...])
by guillaume pernot 07 Dec '00

07 Dec '00

> Subject: Re: Politics and freedom (was: Information [...]) > Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 22:17:27 +0000 > From: "Lord [INSERT NAME HERE]" <lordylordy(a)mad.scientist.com> > CC: discussion(a)fsfeurope.org > References: <Pine.GSO.4.20.0012031535490.22887-100000(a)rebro.mef.hr> > > "Sinisa \"Sigma14\" \"187.64.230.77\" Milicic" wrote: > > > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2000, Alessandro Rubini wrote: > > > > > > Since I've seen no replies to this, yet, I'm posting mine. > > > > > > > the FS philsophy [...] this reminds me of the ideas and the names of > > > > prjects and similars [...] (e.g.technology for the people, $thing > > > > for the people) (I find nothing bad in this)) > > > > > > While I don't find it bad, either, I think the issues of libre [1] > > > software are detached ("orthogonal") from political movements. I don't > > > oppose your (or anyone else's) political ideas, I'd just better not > > > mix them in the fight for libre programs. What I state in my talks ouch, I *do* think that free software struggle has strong political implications, as it faces the issues of (intellectual) property and freedom. Such concepts are, by essence, political ? I don't see any "rightism" in that, as right-wing people think property _is_ freedom... I don't say right-wing people shouldn't support free-software: they have other benefits in the struggle, e.g. free software can stretch production costs. Each of us has his/her own motivations... That's why opensource "alternative" rises and gets liked by bosses. opensource, it's free (like beer) software :( My point is here, to insist not to de-politize "libre software" movement. > > dictatorships). Anarchism does exclude democracy, but only because it > > preaches the abolition of the state. > > And capitalism. And boss ;) > I know being an anarchist is just so cool, but just anybody doesn't > qualify... :-) you're so right ;) keep the flame ! a++

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continuing OS vs FS (was: Information about the Free Software Foundation)
by Alexander Braun 05 Dec '00

05 Dec '00

Hi everybody, just read through http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html where the differences between OS and FS are explained by rms himself. I still stick to what I said in the mail before: I don't see the difference. I.e., <flame shield> I see what he says, I just don't think that these are the important points. The basics are the same, and that's better software development through peer review. </flame shild> But perhaps I'm just too much into the practical aspects of the discussion. Alexander Braun Laser Laboratorium Göttingen Hans-Adolf-Krebs-Weg 1 37077 Göttingen fon +49 (0) 551 5035 23 fax +49 (0) 551 5035 99 email abraun3(a)gwdg.de

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Discussion December 2000